Tania Israel

I met Tania Israel a few months ago in a course we both took with our mutual friend, Anne Van de Water. There were a few things I noticed pretty immediately about Tania when we met the first day, which happened to be the day of her 50th birthday celebration. She is unbelievably grounded, intelligent and articulate while simultaneously conveying a beautiful and contagious levity and brightness. I was able to gather Tania’s strengths through the content of the course without any real context of who this person was outside of that room. Then, Anne told me about Tania’s Ted Talk on “Bisexuality and Beyond,” so Tania gave me her business card. That was when I learned what a powerhouse this woman is not only in her field of psychology, as Chair of the Department of Counseling, Clinical and School Psychology at UC Santa Barbara and advocate for LGBTQ individuals and communities, but in life in general. In listing many aspects of her identity, such as, but not limited to, Biracial, Asian American, Bisexual, Jewish Buddhist Feminist, Engaged Citizen, Actor, Cheese Enthusiast, Lyricist, Optimist, Social Justice Advocate, Psychologist, Professor, her card instantaneously struck me with the obvious, but often overlooked, reality that we are all made up of so many parts. No one aspect of any of us is what should define us, but our uniqueness is found through the mixing of the ingredients. We find commonality through our components but striving for too much sameness defies our humanity. I was excited to share a Last Cut Conversation with Tania. She shares about her deepening practice of Buddhism, which required cutting other internal and external stories, but her cut was more of a moving towards. The evolution of her Buddhist practice highlights something worth stressing: cuts can be easy, gentle and relatively effortless when, and if, we are carefully listening to the internal and external cues given by the body and life and acting accordingly. 

Before we start getting into the questions or a bigger conversation, I always like to ask people to introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about who they are. So if you wouldn't mind doing that, it would be great.

Tania: "Yes. Who am I? I'm Tania Israel. I live here in Santa Barbara, California. I've been here for 16 years. I'm a professor of counseling psychology at the University of California Santa Barbara. I am Chair of the department now. My research is mostly on interventions to support LGBT individuals and communities. I also do a lot of stuff outside of work. I do political stuff. I do stuff in the LGBT community. I have a cat. What else should I say? I gave you my card, right?"

Yes, I love your card.

"That's part of my introduction, right? I'm a biracial, Asian-American, bisexual, Jewish, Buddhist, feminist, among other things."

Right. That's perfect. That's it in a nutshell. That’s why we all should have business cards like that. So far what I love most about the book that I'm reading [Amin Maalouf’s “In the Name of Identity”], and your TED Talk, is the message that we're all so multifaceted and when we identify or when we attach onto one part of our identity so strongly, it often then is at the loss of others, because we're such rounded beings.

"I just sent somebody today this piece that I wrote about a decade ago or something called 'Conversations, Not Categories.’ It's a personal narrative piece, where I write about being biracial, bisexual and feminist, and the interaction among all of these aspects. It’s a personal narrative so there are stories in it and it's not about the labels. A student just did this dissertation on biracial people and identity, and I thought, "Okay, where did they grow up?" because I think that the context makes such a difference. I think there's so much to it. It's like I have all these identity labels on my card, but that doesn’t even say it all."

And it's constantly changing, because you're a vibrant, living being. We all are ever bouncing around and interacting with other people, which influences the context of how we show up in any given situation. 

I’d love to start with the question of what's most true to you. The answers to that question tend to feed into why we do the things we do and why we make the last cuts and the significant decisions in our lives. 

"I'll tell you that I have been preparing for this mostly because you ask really interesting questions. So I thought, "All right, let me think about what's most important to me. What's most true to me?" True, not important. What's true to me? So, I was having dinner with my partner, David, and my friend Pema, who's visiting. Pema is a playwright and asks really good questions too, and is one of those people, like you, a very thoughtful person who likes to draw stories out of people and interact with them. So, I asked this question and said, "I'm trying to figure out what to say. What is most true to me? I'm not sure!" And David said, "I know what's most true to you." I said, "Oh good! What?" (laughs) He said the thing that was in the back of my mind so I thought, "Ok, maybe that's it." He said, "Well, it's Buddhism, of course." And I said, "Oh, well, yeah. Of course, it is." Then I was thinking of this Last Cut idea. So, I'm going to tell you about my palm."

Really? Okay. That's nice.

"So, I started talking at the dinner on Thursday night about my palm and I said, "Oh yeah, when Lisa ..." That was my ex-girlfriend, I said, "Oh yeah, Lisa read my palm, and she told me there is thing about my headline." This is the headline [gestures to her palm]. When she first looked at it, she said, "I don't know what's going on here, but there's a break in your headline. It starts over here and then it...""

Oh yes, it picks up over there. [Looking at Tania’s headline on palm}

"Exactly, and right then Lisa pulled up in the driveway."

While you were having this dinner on Thursday?

"Yes, I thought, "I conjured up Lisa." And then Lisa came in and I was talking about this and David said, "Oh, will you read my palm?" So then Lisa was doing another palm reading. Anyway, it was completely hilarious, but then the four of us had this really interesting conversation. So, [back to my split headline in my palm], Lisa said, "I have to look this up and figure out what it means." So, she came back and she said, "Um, there's a point where your consciousness shifted." And she said, "And, let's see, it's like after ..." There's a first finger, second finger, third finger, she's said, "Yeah, [it splits around] when you were around 30. You know, a little bit after that." And I thought, "Yeah, that's when I started practicing Buddhism." There was a huge, dramatic shift for me and it was just wild when she saw that and then I thought, "Yes, that is it." So, when I thought about The Last Cut, I thought, “It's in my palm,” but then I feel bad because it has nothing to do with bisexuality."

This is amazing. (laughs) It doesn’t have to be about bisexuality and identity issues. This is about whatever Last Cut you want to share.

"There it is. Right there. That's my last cut." [Gesturing to headline in palm again]

That's incredible. Wow. So what at that point in your 30’s was happening in your life? What was that moment like when you stepped towards Buddhism?

"So, I'll go back to context now. I grew up in this secular, intellectual family with academic parents. My last name is Israel and my dad is technically Jewish, but they were German Jews who came here in the 1800’s and not very connected to Judaism. They were much more connected to German traditions, like Christmas trees. So we always had a Christmas tree when I was growing up and all this stuff. It was very confusing."

That was like every Jew's dream though. At least in my family, I remember, all we ever asked my mom was, "Can we have a Christmas tree?" The answer was always "No."

"Oh, you're Jewish too. Yes. So, we had a Christmas tree. Growing up my parents always said, "Oh, we're going to let the kids choose their own path if they want to find something." I grew up in Charlottesville, Virginia, which is a very ethnically black and white town, and also there's a lot of religion and people's communities are often centered around their religion. So I used to go to church with my friends. I had a bunch of Catholic friends. I'd end up going to mass with them, because then they would go out for pancakes afterwards.

I ended up doing that [version of religion], but it was mostly around the people in the community. Then I started doing yoga in my mid-20s, because I saw a bumper sticker that said, "Yoga. It feels good." (laughs) My partner at the time said, "You're really susceptible to advertising.” It's a good thing the bumper sticker didn't say, "Heroin. It feels good.” So I started doing yoga and that, for me, was kind of the first thing. I would ask people, “What does it mean when you say you're spiritual?” I don't know what that means. I just didn't feel it. I didn't have any sense of that and so I remember a friend of mine describing it. I realized, "Oh, that's sort of what I get from yoga. It helps me to feel grounded,” but I didn't have a faith. So, in my early 30s, I went through some big shifts in my life. I ended up in Memphis, Tennessee, going through a divorce. I thought, "I never even meant to get married. I'm not sure how it is that I'm actually getting divorced now." I remember thinking at the time, "The only things in my life that are as I thought they would be are that I'm a psychologist and I have a cat." (laughs) You know? "How did I end up here?""

Did work take you to Memphis?

"Yeah, work took me to Memphis. That was my first academic job. So, I was there and I just felt like the bottom was falling out for me. I started looking around, asking, “What is there?” There was a “Course in Miracles” class at my gym and I thought, "Okay, I'll go to that." And I thought, "Well, that's sort of interesting," but, you know, that wasn't it. A very good friend of mine had been practicing Buddhism for a number of years and I said, "Talk to me about this Buddhism thing."

So, she told me stuff about it and I bought these tapes called “How to Meditate.” I started doing it and, after about a year, I reflected, "Whoa, this really works," and then I got curious about why does it work, you know? A lot of people would say, "Whoa, you're an academic and you're interested in Buddhism." I would hear, "Well, Buddhism is really more of a philosophy than a religion." People get very into the theory of Buddhism and all this stuff. That was absolutely not my entry point. My entry point was absolutely the practice of it without having any idea what the belief system was.

I was doing this basic “How to Meditate” thing, but then it was a package deal from Sounds True. So it's “How to Meditate” with a “Loving Kindness Meditation” and something else. With the “Loving Kindness Meditation,” you're sending out this loving kindness to other people who are experiencing similar kinds of suffering to you. I was doing this and just remember this one moment where I was just feeling so lost and so upset, and I felt all of that come back to me. I felt all those people out there sending me energy. I was like, “Whoa.” So, for me, I thought, “Okay, there’s something there. There is something to all of this.""

Something more to it than the pancakes.

"The pancakes. (laughs) There's more to religion than the pancakes. Actually, it's funny because I worked at Mr. Donut my senior year in high school and we used to prepare the doughnuts for the churches. I would think, "I want to go to church, because they get donuts." (laughs) Yes."

So in that obviously incredibly profound moment, you tapped into something much bigger than yourself. So, then moving forward from there, what changed? How did your practice deepen, or how did it influence other parts of your life?

"I feel as if life picked me up and moved me or something.  It is funny because another interesting spiritual thing happened at the same time. My parents had said, "We’ll let the kids choose whatever [religion] they want." My sister was the honor student. She was the smart one. I was not the smart one in my family..."

I find that hard to believe.

"Yes, well, we set the bar very high in my family. (laughs) So my sister was the smart one. She dropped out of high school and went to Stanford to be an honor student. Then she decided, "You know, this doesn't make me happy,” and she started following this guru who goes by Adi Da. That's probably the name people are most familiar with. It's like an Eastern-esque religion, but he's from Long Island. He’s got an island in Fiji and a place up in Northern California and all this stuff. My parents were like, "Okay, that's not what we meant. That’s going a little too far.” And then, the Jewish side of my family is like, "Oh my God, it's a cult."  So, there was all this stuff in my family about it. So when I said, "I'm practicing Buddhism." They said, "Oh, thank goodness. At least we've heard of that."

My sister invited me to come have an audience with her guru. They were trying to open things up to people outside the community so that people would have more knowledge of what it was about and see that it wasn't a cult. So, I said, "Okay." I've always been very skeptical of my sister's spiritual stuff, because I just had no way of connecting to it personally. So I went, and it was in Northern California in Lake County. I went and I had an audience with him. Just walking around the land on the sanctuary, I started feeling energy moving through me, and I thought, "I have no idea what this is." It was undeniable. I could feel something there.

There were a bunch of us and we would wait for him to sit with each individual. Then we went to sit in this room while we were waiting for everyone to be done. As I was sitting there, I could feel like this line of energy go right through me from the top of my head all the way through my spine. I thought, "I have no idea what this is." (laughs) Afterwards we were kind of debriefing and people were talking. I described it, and people said that is…I am trying to remember the word they used. Oh yes, they said that it was the kundalini. They said, "Oh yeah, that's the kundalini." And I thought, "I've never heard of this before." There were all these sorts of spiritual seekers who were going for the kundalini, and they are like trying to find these things. I call it the spiritual orgasm. People are going for the spiritual orgasm, because it's that feeling. I get it, because it's amazing. However, I also realize we're not supposed to live in perpetual orgasm.

It did make me feel that there's something beyond what I can control. There's something beyond what I can understand that is going on. So, that was also a significant moment that opened me up. It's funny because it didn't make me go, "Oh, yeah, this guy,” but it made me go, "Oh, yeah, something." And so then I ended up in Santa Barbara.  

So how I ended up in Santa Barbara. This is a great story. When I went to graduate school, I was in Arizona, in the desert, far away from the ocean and everything. I was doing this project where I was working with all these gifted girls, and we would do this activity with them called “the Future Day Fantasy.” It was to envision that day in your life ten years in the future.

For the first time, I did it along with them. When I envisioned my future day, it was like this-- I woke up in the morning and there was light streaming through the window. I get up and I look out the window and I can see the ocean. I'm kind of elevated so it's like a hilly coast or a mountainy coast.  Then I get in my convertible and I drive down this winding road to go to my job at the university, which is right on the coast. I teach and I have lunch with a colleague, and then I drive home at the end of the day and I have a glass of wine as I watch the sunset. For years I had it in my mind that that was Santa Cruz, and then I went to Santa Cruz and I realized, "That's not Santa Cruz.” The university is up in the woods there. Then I completely forgot about [that future dream day] until the week that they invited me here for the interview [at UCSB], and it popped back in my mind. And I thought that's Santa Barbara and that is no place I can think of but Santa Barbara. Okay, so that's chapter one.

They invited me here [to Santa Barbara] for the interview. I go ahead and do the interview and the week after that I go to this feminist psychology conference in Utah. I knew it was the day that they were voting on who they wanted for this faculty position [at UCSB].  At the time, I'm still living in Memphis and am going through all these transitions. I thought, "I could use a therapist,” but I'm really picky so, for me, a therapist must be feminist, and, ideally, more expressive than cognitive kind of therapy. I had started to explore this spiritual stuff. So it would be good to have somebody who can help me to do that. But I'm in Memphis, Tennessee. Right, so I'm not having much success.

So, I go to this feminist psychology conference and this is the day that they're voting. I go to this session on Buddhism and psychotherapy, and the person who's leading the session says, "I'm a Gestalt therapist in Santa Barbara, California.” And I'm like, "Really? You're a feminist Gestalt Buddhist therapist in Santa Barbara?" And I thought, "Okay, well, obviously they're going to give me the job, because that's my therapist." So, they do offer me the job, and I take it.

[Shortly after that] I'm back in Memphis and I'm packing up all my stuff to leave. I've got these boxes that my mom had unloaded on me from her attic. She was like, "it's time for you to take this stuff." So I'm putting them in newer, not 20 year old boxes, and I come across my diary from when I was 14 years old. I open it up and it opens to January 1, 1981, I believe. It's the day after I kissed a boy for the first time, and I'm writing about it and say, "And his name was Jake and he's from Santa Barbara, California." I'm thinking, "I am at the Unitarian Church in Charlottesville, Virginia, what am I doing kissing a boy from Santa Barbara?” I'm thinking, "I have no idea what he was doing there or where he came from."

So then, I'm driving across the country [to move to Santa Barbara] and I think, "You know, I should go see Bethany in Portland, because she was my Unitarian Church connection and maybe she knows [why that guy from Santa Barbara was at the church in Virginia]. So I drive and take this crazy route across the country. It takes me from Memphis to Montreal to the Michigan Women’s Music Festival to Seattle and then I'm driving down the coast. I'm in Seattle and haven't seen her since high school graduation, but call her and say, "Hey, Bethany, I'm going to be in town in a few days. Can I see you ?" She said, "Well, sure. I'm like getting ready for Burning Man and it's a bit kind of crazy, but stop on by." I thought, "Same old Bethany." So, I stop by and I'm telling her this whole story, and she said, "Tania, I have the other half of this story." She takes off this ring that she's wearing and she said, "Jake was traveling with a guy named Carlos. That night, Carlos gave me this ring and said, “This is a ring that must be worn. If you are ever going to not wear it again, you must give it away." She said, "Two weeks ago I came across this ring in a drawer, and I put it on and then you showed up." So, people are always asking, “Why did you come to Santa Barbara?” I say, "Sort of for the job, but apparently I think it was just destiny.""

Lisa:    Wow. Then the work just came and it is all exactly how you described it in your dream.

"I know, and I've got the convertible." (laughs)

You need to have “manifestor” written on your business card.

"I know. People ask, "Will you be staying here forever?" I don't know, but if I'm supposed to leave, I think I'm going to get some pretty strong indication. So I started practicing Buddhism and then, whoosh, it brought me down here and apparently this is just where I was supposed to be. But when I was in Memphis and I wanted to practice Buddhism, there was a very small group of people who met every other week to do some readings or do some meditation. I come to Santa Barbara and people are like, "Oh, which lineage of Tibetan Buddhism do you want to practice?" So my friend Ivonne, my Buddhist friend, came to town, and helped me to navigate through what teachings might be helpful to me. I started going to hear Alan Wallace who does teachings that are very accessible to Westerners.

Then I went to hear this Tibetan guy. I thought, "Okay, I don't know why. I'll just go check this out." He became my teacher. There's a small Sangha, a small group here, and he's such a sweet guy, and so I started going there. I kept practicing. The main practice there every week is a practice of compassion. So that became my foundational practice. There's this daily practice that I have been doing for the last 15 years now that I've made incredibly limited progress on. (laughs) You’re supposed to do a certain number, like 108.000, prostrations. I have a little Excel file where I keep track of it all but I'm not there yet.

So then Ivonne started going to Nepal for most of the year and studying there at this monastery where they also do these programs for Westerners. So I went to go visit her and to do this 10-day meditation retreat. It was a five-year series. I did three of those five years. Yes, I went back a bunch of times and it was these ten days of silent retreat, where you're going to teachings and you're doing these practices. Apparently, when I'm silent and I can't talk, what I do is I write songs. So I have a whole bunch of songs about Buddhist perspectives on emptiness to the tune of Broadway show tunes. I ended up writing songs that summarized the ten days of teachings that then everyone sang it together. I did one to “Oh, Come All Ye Buddhists,” because apparently Europeans also know that tune. It’s Latin or something. We have, “Oh, Come All Ye Faithful” and they've got something else, but my version summarized the ten days of teachings. They say with the teachings you're supposed to listen, reflect, and meditate. I realize that that's how I reflect, with the songs. So I ended up doing all those songs with the teachings. Then, my friend asked, "Oh, will you write a song to the tune of “You Light up My Life” about this practice, and how it's related to Ben Franklin?” And I said, “Sure” so I wrote that. It's just crazy so I end up writing all these songs about all kinds of things."

That's amazing. Does it come through in your daily practice in that way?

"So, I have to say with my daily practice that, well, I've never been very daily about my daily practice. When I do a practice, that's the practice I do. So it's interesting because one of the times that I went to Nepal, I came back and I was talking to Tulku, my teacher. I said, "I can't seem to find a way to integrate what I've done there with my life here. My life is super busy, and I'm not doing the practice regularly."

I said, "The only thing that I've changed since I came back is that I do my offering prayers at every meal." And he was like, "Oh, that's wonderful." And I was like, "Okay." I'm confessing one of my bad Buddhist things, and he responded, "That's great.” I was confused, "Really? You think?" "Yeah, that means that several times a day you are making that connection and reflecting." And I said, "Oh, yeah," and very consistently, that's the thing that I always do. I do it at every meal and, and I eat at least three meals a day."

Maybe I need to adopt that one, because if that were me, it would be at least probably five different times (laughs) a day that I would be doing the blessings. I generally don’t like to miss a meal or the ones in between.

"I know. It’s probably the most regular thing that I do. And then I drive around and I sing songs, some that I wrote about Buddhism and sometimes chant mantras." 

I think that's the beauty of any practice that we do. It's finding a way that we can make it personal, and individual, and functional.

"Well, it's like yesterday we were going over the mountain to go to the Santa Ynez Valley, and there was an accident. When there's an accident, the traffic is all backed up. Everyone is crawling along, and I start just focusing on the people who were in the accident, and generating compassion for them.

So, it's become very integrated into the way I see things and the way I do things. I just finished teaching a Summer School class where I taught the students all a loving kindness meditation. I do a lot of stuff around social justice in counseling psychology, and I do this thing about using loving kindness meditation in working with social justice issues. Yeah, so it comes into my life in a lot of different ways."

Beautiful. You’ve answered my next question before I even was able to ask it. I was going to ask how your practice integrates into your teaching role. When does it becoming challenging for you in terms of being out in the world?

"For example, during the offering prayers at every meal, if I'm having a meal with somebody I don't know and especially somebody who is only a professional contact, that feels really risky to me. Sometimes I'll do the offering prayers, but not in any visible way. It’s funny because sometimes you've got a bowl or a plate or a cup or something and you know, you do it like this [looks down pensively at imaginary meal], and it's an offering. I realized if I'm with my plate and I'm looking at it for a long time before I eat, people will often ask, "Is your food okay?" They have no idea what I'm doing. And so then another thing you can do is you can do this [puts hands together in prayer position] and you can do an offering, because this somehow feels safer. I think.  You can also say something for the meal that is less shockingly disruptive to other people in their life, and so I try to say, “Excuse me for a moment.” I do my little thing and then I often go, "It's a Buddhist thing." Because I don't want people to think [I am] evangelical Christian, that seems more [out there]."

Right, that's edgier especially today where there's so much rejection or judgment of one’s practice.

"Exactly. So that's probably the thing where I am confronted most in ways that I have to make decisions about, because it's an extra moment of [external interaction around] it. The funny thing about when I started practicing Buddhism [was that I did not outwardly share too much], because with other things, like yoga, I would get very evangelical about. I'm like, "I'm doing yoga and I love it. You should do yoga too. You all should do yoga. Everybody should be doing yoga because yoga is awesome." (laughs) So when I started practicing Buddhism, one of the things that Ivonne told me is Buddhism is not about being evangelical, and not about pushing it on to other people. The other thing that I realized is that if I was quiet within, I went deeper with it. For all the other things, even if I've had a very limited experience of this thing, [I would still feel as if] now I'm going to teach it to everybody and tell everybody about it. If I'm quiet about it, then instead of saying, “Okay, how do I teach this?” I'm feeling, “Oh, is there another level I can go inside? And how?” So for me, being quiet with Buddhism really took me to a different level with it, and then after I've been practicing for a while, my aunt in New York, who I’m really close to, but I haven't been talking to her about it, she said, "Tania, something is different. What are you doing?" I realized, “Wow, it shows.”

That was one of the most striking things, because I didn't have to tell everybody about it. It's funny because then I moved to Santa Barbara and people in Santa Barbara think I’m extremely nice. I probably am, but I wasn't always. (laughs) I used to be much edgier, you know, critical. I say this to my friends sometimes and they say, “I find that very hard to believe,” but it’s changed me. It really changed me. So for me that was another thing, as it was the first thing probably that I just tried to do internally without showing it to everybody. Then, because it's become such an inner thing, it almost feels like I want to protect it too. It feels vulnerable. I want to protect this thing, and I also realized I want to protect it from others who are going to be critical and whatever about any kind of faith, especially in academia doing faith based stuff. The only two people in my department who are at all open about their spiritual side are the conservative Christian faculty member and me. It's so interesting, and actually we get along bizarrely well. (laughs) But, yeah, it's not about being outward with it when it's not the thing to do.

I actually believe in karma and reincarnation and all these things. For a long time I didn't. For a long time I didn't know if those are true, but I knew that I lived my life better if I act as if it was true. That’s actually the next level I reached. I will just act as if they were true, and that helps me."

Was there a notable shift that you felt in terms of how you were orienting yourself in the world? You said how you notice appearing nicer than you were before, but was there a moment in time?

"Yes. So there are these [tenets], as I think most religions have. Buddhism has its “thou shall not kill” and these [types of teachings]. So not killing is one of them. I didn’t run around killing people (laughs) everyday even when I wasn’t practicing, but it's ants and my cat is out there killing all kinds of stuff. It's all these things. So there are a lot of different levels of that, because I'm really conscious of it. For example, sometimes I will kill a mosquito, but then I’ll say prayers for it. I don't do it out of, “Oh, die mosquito,” malice kind of thing, but the intention behind it and the feeling behind it is a completely different thing. So, there's that. Then there's also the other thing that my cat does kill things. I am always fishing out dead animals from under the bed. [My partner] David was so impressed when there was a rat once and he said, “I'm so impressed that you got that rat. I’ve never lived with a woman who wouldn't say, “David, get the rat.”” I also knew that I would treat that rat compassionately and say prayers for it as I’m taking it out to the garbage and bless it in the bag and all that stuff. And that's something I want. He’ll step on snails because they eat his plants and all this stuff. He gets upset when I say, "No don't kill it,” so instead I'd take them off the path if I get out there before he does. I say to them, “Hide away! Move faster!” (laughs) Then he gets upset when I say a little prayer for the snail. It’s a very different relationship with things like that. So although we do spray the house for the ants, because they were always just a nightmare last year, I also said lots if prayers for all the ants.

Then there’s not stealing. Again, I wasn’t a kleptomaniac before or anything, but the way that it is interpreted is not taking that which is not freely given. So that,  to me also has to do with not trying to get away with stuff. For example, if they bring you the check and they didn't you include this item, maybe the waitress is going to get charged for that. Maybe not, maybe the business loses that, but I'll point that out now. I have a completely different relationship with that. So there are those things.  There are outward things. I guess some of the speech things are also outward. So there are things like just being aware of harshness of speech, such as saying things about other people. It's really like if you can't say something nice, don’t say anything at all. So I was quieter, but also started noticing it so much more with other people. I just became so much more aware of the harm that we do in form of speech, which then was even more of a motivation for me to not do it. I'm much more careful about my speech. There are all of these levels of practicing those very practical things for Buddhism. It can feel very restrictive in some ways. I mean, there’s no sexual misconduct, which can get interpreted in a lot of different ways. 

But I think that the thing about all of them is that I find that if I live my life according to these precepts, then I don't have to wonder about something I've done. I'm often late getting anywhere, and often when I'm driving when I'm late getting somewhere, I'm thinking of excuses. So, as soon as I walk in the door, I can say, “I'm late because of this, and this, and this, and this, and this.” And I was suddenly realized that's not useful to do in that situation. When you're late, the thing that people don't want is for you to come in and spend the first three minutes talking about your lateness. So instead I thought, “What if I just let all that go and just say, “I'm so sorry.”” Then, I don't have to be running around trying to make up some excuse. So all these things, they just free me up in a way.

This goes back to the conversation we were having at dinner the other night, because we were talking about the Last Cut. So I like to do this thing where I say, “I have this question. Please everybody answer it.” So, (laughs) it was this question I was asking and we started pondering this idea of a last cut. You’ve got whatever that is that needs to be cut spinning in the back of your head. You know at the back of your mind, and that's taking up energy. If you do this thing and when you make that shift, it just frees you up for opportunity.

I didn't know I had question. That is another interesting thing. There are people who are spiritual seekers their whole lives. I never was and so I didn't know I had a question. So that's part of why it’s remarkable to me. I didn't have to look for it."

The interesting thing though is how you described your life leading up to that point, which by no means sounded negative or bad, and then how it became after. There was a shift though in the flow, the beauty and the dreamlike quality of your life. Everyone has a day-to-day grind as they’re doing what they love the most, but I feel as if, just in hearing you talk about those two parts of your life, the two parts of your headline, there was such a distinct shift that even if you weren't necessarily seeking or trying to answer that specific question, when it sort of ultimately happened, then all of these different things opened up.

"It's true and there were certainly ways that I was not in integrity with myself and others before that shift. I think it’s interesting the word integrity, as it captures what it means. I feel as if it made me more whole."

Well, I have one other question that popped up when I was listening to what you were saying about listening to others. Because there has been a change in who you’ve been able to relate to or be in relationship with as you’ve deepened your faith, how have you found you have had to adjust your interactions with people? Often this happens when we get clearer around how we're showing up in the world that is more true to who we are.

"I don't know. It's interesting. I would say in some ways I would be drawn to people who are more aligned, but in some ways, it also allows me to be with people who are not so aligned and it doesn't affect me in the same way."

That’s a testament then to the practice.

"So I realize there's one other big thing that I've left out. I got this award from my professional organization; this woman of the year award, which gave me an hour [to speak] at the APA convention, American Psychological Association convention. So then, I thought, "I'm going to go get a Katharine Hepburn/Spencer Tracy “Woman of the Year” movie and watch that and that's going to give me some insight about what to say." And I watched it and I realized, "Nope, that's not it." David, my partner, watched it with me and I said, "That's not it." And he's said, "So what is it?" So we talked about it and I realized that the thing that I wanted to say was from “Buffy, The Vampire Slayer.” And so I gave this talk at the APA convention called “All I need to know about being  Woman of The Year I learned from Buffy, the Vampire Slayer.” And then I kept using it. I gave a talk to my class because I was teaching this class about leadership, and so it was “All I need to know about leadership I learned about from Buffy.”  

There's thing that happens. All we hear for six seasons is that Buffy is the chosen one; it's her responsibility to slay all the demons, you know, she's the one. And then you get the backstory about sort of how that came to be, and it turns out it's this patriarchal system keeping her in this role. And so, at the very end, in Season Seven, there's this big battle that Buffy cannot battle on her own. So, when a slayer dies, another slayer rises, basically, but there are all these potential slayers out there. So they bring in all the potential slayers, and, at the end, she basically shifts the rules so that everybody can fully realize their slayer power. Oh my God, you have to watch Buffy. They're so good.

All right, so this is the main speech [from the final episode of Buffy], "So here's the part where you make a choice. What if you could have that power, now? In every generation, one Slayer is born, because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule. So I say we change the rule. I say my power, should be our power…From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, willbe a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power, can stand up, will stand up. Slayers, every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?""

Talila Gafter

When I had first moved to Manhattan twelve years ago, my mom came to visit me from LA. One of the things that I love about my mom is how she clips interesting articles and meticulously files them until useful. She came equipped with her “When in NYC” folder for that trip. We visited a lovely mix of galleries, stores and restaurants, but made one visit that proved to be an enormous long-term gift to our family.  Mom set up a visit with Ellagem Jewelry after reading an article about Ella Gafter and her amazing daughter, Talila. She wanted to see the gorgeous work of Ella, the queen of pearls and one-of-a-kind fine jewelry {true works of art}. Ella and Talila invited us to their office {I use this term out of function, because this space is stunning} and, as they say in Italian, “E’ stato un colpo di fulmine {Love at first sight!}!” We all connected on so many levels and have since become the dearest of family friends.

From the beginning, I had a strong affinity for and friendship with Talila. She is one of the smartest people I have ever met. She speaks 7 languages and is constantly seeking to study and learn more, be it classical piano or philosophy. She is as kind as she is intelligent. I admire her and always learn from her way of approaching things. This Last Cut Conversation was no different. Talila challenged me to go deeper and even further refine and elevate the dialogue. I am so grateful to have this woman in my life.

Talila: "Let me start before you even ask a question. It is with great trepidation that I engage in this conversation with you, for the reason that I don't believe in cuts whatsoever. I can completely relate to the notion of a cut. I don't know if it is a last cut. We can discuss what a last cut means. The last cut can be the cut of a movie maker, who is just showing the last thing that he obtained for the day, or the last cut for the whole movie, so a temporary state of affairs. Of course the notion of last cut conveys something pretty permanent, so there's an issue there. So I understand that, for example, your own experience, which consists at least patently as the removal of an object, can be described as a cut and, given the nouminous and noumenal meaning and significance attached to the female breasts, I can also understand calling it a last cut, because it is something absolutely very fundamental and very important. [It has been] very life changing for sure and it goes to the essence really of every fundamental question of what it is to be a human being since human beings are separated into male and female, for the moment.

So first of all, I, in a situation where one can actually point at the physical event, an excision, a removal, an explant, as you call it, or as it is called, which really means a de-planting, then I understand the notion of cut. Beyond that, I have great difficulty in even imagining how one could possibly refute something from one's own history, from one's own psychological makeup, from one's own personal constitution--refute it and delete it somehow or annihilate it. I understand the aspect of refusal, perhaps, but I tend to think of the process rather as always one of accumulation even if something is being refuted and repudiated. I very much believe in the notion, also to be refined, of the return of the repressed, in the sense that you cannot eliminate anything from your past and from your psychological constitution. I do believe you can rearrange somehow and you can facilitate the cohabitation inside your person of many different things that somehow you experience as being negative or paralyzing or deleterious to physical or to mental health.

The reason that I looked a little bit at the questions, but I didn't consider them really as guidelines was to the extent I was a little bit put off by the word truth; in the sense that, if you think about it, truth until 100 years ago in the history of Western society was considered something objective and universal, whether it was the religious truth of the one God, or the truth that the philosophers look for as the key to the organization of the universe and the essence basically of the order of things. This was truth. Of course every philosopher built his own system, which he considered the truth, and people subscribed. Then came someone else who said, "No, there is a fault in reasoning like this, like this, like this," and, actually the- let's say the first- very great philosopher who put in question the whole notion of truth is Frederich Nietzsche, the German philosopher about whom I wrote and made a dissertation for my Ph.D. In fact, Nietzsche said something magnificent, which is of course worthy of many a conversation. He said, "The truth is there is not truth." So, ok, talk about a paradox, but that is absolutely magnificent.

So I very personally don't respond to the question, and I'm not being a snob, I just feel it very honestly, that I don't respond to the question, "What is your truth?" I don't have a truth. I also don't believe very much in the possibility of freedom. I believe in fighting for greater freedom than one feels today; the hope, the ideal, of some sort of greater freedom. Perhaps because I've never effectuated a last cut in my own life, even though I have been subjected to very great pressures? Then perhaps it is very possible that I have not experienced the kind of freedom that some of the people that you have interviewed have mentioned. Whether it is small or great or a little niche, I don't really know. The only space where I find any sort of freedom is music making.

Another reason for which I did not read the questions, and perhaps this is the real reason and not the high-falutin reason, but the underlying reason is that, needless to say, one feels suddenly put to the test. Presumably when one goes to a shrink or a priest, one goes to them with the questions and tries to work it out. The priest doesn't ask whoever confesses,  "What is your truth?" He may ask, "What did you do?" And the shrink just sits there and doesn't say anything and waits for a person to come up with these questions. But this is quite rare. If you think about it, even sometimes one says, "Oh, I took a train and I met a total stranger and I said the most amazing things to this stranger, because I'll never meet this person again, etc. So I gave myself a certain liberty." But if you think about it, even if you meet a stranger on a train, it still wouldn't be that. You'd still arrive from here to there somehow, but it wouldn't be with a platter like this, "What is your truth?" Or let's say, "What makes you tick?" It doesn't matter."

Or it might. I think, when you are working on something or you are focusing on something and you have your head in that, then that is your lens. That how I am now going through the world. That's what I'm looking for or asking, because it is what happens to be most relevant [to my work] in this moment. And it is with the understanding that, going back to the idea of being in court, a) there's no right answer and b) I have zero expectation that any conversation, even with the same person, about the subject matter, even from day one to two, [will have the same outcome]. That 's the beauty of whether the truth is capital T, small t or whether it even exists. I find it beautiful. I actually agree that maybe the truth is that there is no truth or that there is no universal truth, because the reality is that what you believe in- whatever you call that, what I believe in, what I believe in today versus tomorrow- the only constant is that I stay connected to myself and that is a changing thing.

LISA: Couldn't you also refer to truth as guiding principles? What do you value most that informs who you are and what guides what you do?

"Of course. I was actually pleased by this surprise effect, which is the reason that I didn't want to read the questions. I didn't want to prepare a speech, but then I thought maybe I would open my mouth like a fish and say nothing. So I had to prepare something. I think it is actually a wonderful way to conduct the dialogue, just like this, to stick your finger in the electric socket. So I thought that the trepidation also derives from the fact that I perhaps exist in a counter-example to an experience of cuts- last cuts, first cuts, small, medium and big, because I am a personality akin to a mule who really carries more and more and more.

The most fundamental aspect of my mule-dom was determined thirty-five or forty years ago. Actually, inspired by your project, I considered that there was perhaps an opportunity for me for an attempt for the seriously required last cut, which I have hoped to effectuate over the last thirty-five or forty years. With that in mind, I betook myself two or three weeks ago to my thirty-fifth reunion at Harvard. I went only to one reunion ten years ago, but that is not relevant to what I am discussing now, perhaps for a very practical reason, which is that ten years ago I lodged in some random dorm. This last reunion I stayed in the dorm where I was a student thirty-eight years ago and where, and I will just throw the bomb like this, in the same dorm in the entrance way, I received a phone call from my mother saying that my father had committed suicide. I traveled there to the reunion with a very, very dear friend from Harvard who knew me at the time. So I thought that I am old enough now, that this would be perhaps an opportunity to review the person that I am, which is the person fully, wholly and over-determined by the fact of father's suicide so many years ago, and that this would be an opportunity not to throw it off or anything, because I don't believe that is possible, but to somehow place myself at the different location in relation to that event and to the history of the reception of that event by me.

Perhaps [I did this] to move away from certain childish aspects, which I recognize rationally- abandonment, rage, all these things, but more than that to…I don't have any words for it, because it was a total failure in the sense that I felt an extraordinary sense of oppression, just being there physically. I mean, we arrived and I went to see a few landmark places there- Harvard Square, this cafe, whatever, and, as soon as I set foot in the dorm, I became totally catatonic. I completely went insane and my friend realized it. We went to the dinner, to the thing, but I was like a total madwoman. I found myself several times just lying in that bed like an idiot, thinking, “Talila, take the train. Go back. This is not working.” The people that I saw I couldn't care less about and the people that I care about I see them anyway. So, I guess there is not much to say about that. I've gone to a psychoanalyst for years, to two types of analysis, really in the attempt, I suppose indeed to nothing else but to place myself differently in regard to my reception of that event over the years. My reception of that, unfortunately, is that it just occupies, in a very constricting fashion, in my guts, and basically my chest and my middle part.  It's not in the question of a sense of responsibility, not very much. Of course, there was sadness and freaking out, as I was eighteen at the time, but I was a good daughter, a very loving daughter, responsive, etc. Yes, as an adult today, I could do very many different things, but that's silly, too. We are forty years ahead so it doesn't really matter."

"So it is not in an emotional sense that I experience specific feelings, it's not feelings anymore even, because it is a long time. I don't know how to characterize it. How would I say? It's in the same way that I feel like I occupy very actively my frame, just because I am an active person and I am a thinking person. I always feel accompanied or I feel there is a coextensive field of, I don't know as if to say emptiness, or lack, or default in the sense of fault, accompanying me or really coextensive of my person. I will on my deathbed, when it comes, certainly regret not having been able to be a Talila without that inside me, not to have ever experienced somehow, "not this." I don't know how else to put it really, just like, one can if there is a divorce, ok, not married. You did the explant, not the implant. Of course, with lots of difficulties around, I'm not saying at all that it goes smoothly. I'm just saying there was this and then there was that and then you work with it. I cannot bring myself to a state where I don't have that. I just can't. With all good will and intelligence, education, help and whatever you want. So this may have already determined for me, the weight and certainly a negative experience to the extent that there was a father and then there wasn't a father. So it might be good for him, but it certainly wasn't good for me in any way or since, obviously. The feeling of being yoked to that event, which is the right way of putting it, I really feel myself like those buffalos that are yoked to the thing with the water, that is what I feel like and fundamentally, I'm going around and around the empty well. Perhaps this habituated me in a certain way to the notion that what happens to me or in my world is going to sit on top of me and just be added to what I am carrying. It's very possible.

To move away a little bit, there is another very fundamental and, I can say mostly positive way, in which I have not effectuated even a first cut is my attachment to my mother. Our lives are extraordinarily intertwined much to do with practical circumstances in the sense that, when I graduated from college, we needed to start a business. We needed to get active with something. When I was nineteen or twenty, we just had to do something, and there was born this business that flourished to this day, which is very nice. But I am certainly a successful vehicle in my professional world for my mother's ambition. I'm not embarrassed by it. I have been, at some junctures, ashamed of it. I have overcome that shame, it was somehow a formal sort of shame that children were supposed to grow up and do one's own thing and I have at certain junctures felt it as a service. I have with the years, freed myself from that sense of shame, perhaps because I have achieved certain things on my very own, which are so strictly and exquisitely mine, that absolutely nobody can penetrate or hear or understand and it doesn't matter to me at all. For example, this dissertation that I wrote, it doesn't bother me at all that I didn't try to publish it or anything, because I don't care. However, I know it's on the Internet somewhere! So if in three hundred years, some student lands on it and pulls his hair out and thinks, "Oh my God, I can't believe I found this thing! Unbelievable!" Well, I'm already happy beyond the great for that. That's enough for that because that will be a sister soul for me if that exists and if it doesn't, I don't care. So that's very nice."

"Or perhaps again, something in my musical studies, also which is perhaps something more personal, because that's just so extraordinarily ineffable, the sound that one produces. It can say anything and so the notion of communication is very difficult in music if you think about it. People think, “Oh, it's the emotions.” There is that too. Of course, the music can be sad in a minor mode, or it can be static, or extraordinarily lyrical or it can be comic. At the same time, the sounds are so ineffable that any piece of music, any sound, can stand for anything if you think about it. Of course the composer wrote agitato for agitated.  He's telling you to help you reproduce [a feeling], but nevertheless, I don't know about communication in music. That doesn't matter. 

So now you have to ask me questions, because my speech is totally finished. Of course, I do consider though my internal space as a perpetual, ongoing extremely last cut, because I do have an internal room where I actively push all sorts of things away. But I consider all these cuts very temporary in the sense that it is a little bit like kicking some cans away and then they roll back. For me, the trick is to juggle or spin plates on sticks, to maneuver and to live with the certainty for me that I'm using my time well, despite many impediments. Once again, I think that for me the music making is very important for me. Even in the very concrete sense, when I sit at the piano and I practice for two hours. After the two hours, I get something to show to myself. It's not the same as the two hours before. There's something there to show for the time. Or perhaps in studying things and certain readings, certain intellectual occupations, just the fact of not being the same. Once again, not being the same, for me, means accumulating because I don't know how to discard. I've been buzzed off in terms of people effectuating a final cut on me, not really last, but a final cut. Of course, my father qualifies as the first one, not only final, but the ultimate last cut. I also had a very very dear friend in Italy who had been my friend for ten or fifteen years, and whom I considered a sister, basically one day told me that I had become a burden on her life. I was really taken aback. Of course she said it to me on the highway from Umbria to Rome and, the second we got on the highway, there were like ten accidents and it was like an eight and a half hour drive. I sat there crying and she just kept explaining to me what a burden I had become on her life. I just wanted to get out of the car and walk back to Rome. And then she kind of had second thoughts that she didn't express herself well and I just said, “Ok, forget it.” That's not a last cut. She had already done the final cut on me and I just said, “Ok .” 

So, this is really the reason for my trepidation, I don't know how to address what you are talking about and I'd actually really like to learn. You know, I have a very long marriage; I'm married now twenty-six years, almost twenty-seven. So I've been with the same man almost thirty years. Of course, there were junctures of difficulty, but we surmounted them. It didn't occur to me to separate. I guess whatever difficult junctions there were didn't seem dangerous to my person so to speak so I would have to throw any chains, however golden they may be, off." 

I think that is a fundamental point, because I think that's where we are then forced into those junctures where you feel that piece has got you by the neck.

LISA: No matter how beautiful it is

"For sure."

In that, I think that in any of those junctures, in and of itself, is a quote unquote last cut. To decide to stay. Just to go back to your original question, the removal of the implants is so black and white. However, if I look at all these other decisions that I've made, or really that you've spoken of, it can be a decision to be all in or to hold onto, as much as it is a removal.

"Yes, this is very refined, what you are saying. Very refined."

In hearing all that you have said, I would reflect back to you that you are living this way very much so. I think you are so intelligent and you are, in some ways, so literal, that in looking at those two words, you thought, “Well, final or it has to be a removal.” [We are speaking] to the nuance of all of it.

"That's really true. I stand totally corrected."

No, no, no. This is not about correcting you.  What you've offered is a beautiful gift to me in hearing all that you said. I think, first and foremost, it is such a personal thing. So, even in providing these questions, it is just the framework for the conversation, but every time I speak to someone, it isn't in this formal way [or with a set outcome of responses]. It comes out that we all have our different approaches to how we go about this. Even, in my mind, hearing your decision to do your dissertation or move toward studying the piano, those are decisions to go towards something.

"That's very true. And any “going to” is a decision to go away from somewhere else." 

Exactly. That is what I was going to say. Two hours a day that you are dedicating to piano are two hours a day that you are not dedicating to anything else. Whether [or not] you are out there on 5th Avenue with a flag shouting these are my two hours and I'm not giving them to anyone else, within yourself, it is an action toward what you believe in, which is your internal space. The other thing that I think is so interesting to point out, within the nuance of the terminology of Last and Cut, is that even where there have been removals, an organ from my body or a person from my life or moving away from a career, there's always what I have taken on and the lasting effect of everything. Every moment in time, we are a new representation of everything that has led up to that moment and, by no means through this, am I speaking as if, “Ok, now I'm standing here in total empty, open space,” as we are all an accumulation of everything that has happened to us.

In your case, you didn't choose for your father to take his life, but it becomes part of the experience. So all I want to do with any of these questions is to do exactly what you did. To make you think. To make anyone think. How do you relate to the subject matter of “what do I believe in most and how am I standing up for myself in the day to day of life.” This was such a concrete example {gestures to chest} but it exemplifies this bigger metaphorical thing that is happening in moments in our lives, sometimes by choice, sometimes not, and then we react and that has its own ripple effect. So the whole point of any of this is that there is no right answer. It is constantly changing. There is no one truth, but I think that all of us have something and it may not be something definable.

"Well, there is a sense of identity, for sure. It's not just a random shift of perspective all the time." 

Right, that makes you feel like yourself in the most fundamental and core way. I feel as if I spent a lot of time being the reactor to that. Then there was this point when I identified that, for me, the truth in the spoken word became something so fundamental for my experience and [that realization] from other fundamental relationships in my life transferred to how I interact with my daughter. To me, in my house, what is most important is that I know that she and I have a clear flow of telling the truth, the literal truth. Then, for my personal experience, that [foundation] opens up my ability to love and feel safe and connect. So, with her, that has become a key principle by which we operate in our home. That's the law. But she can go off and come back and say well that means nothing to me. That's fine under your roof, but what's most important to me is, I don't even know, rebellion or creativity. But I think beyond the word truth, it's that connection to self.

LISA: It's alignment. It's the lived experience in the body. We all know that sense of what feels right, no matter how you want to define it.

"One of the greatest liberations, perhaps, is actually recognizing for real what feels right and recognizing that what is negative is probably not right. Freud said that everyone knows how difficult it is for the neurotic person to give up the neurosis, why analysis is so predictably interminable and not terminable, with all the connotations of the sense of a masochistic pleasure one derives from the neurosis, the certainty of habit, the comfort of knowing what is up, even if it is negative, etcetera, etcetera. So I am saying to recognize, first of all, that it is not simple to recognize what is good and perhaps there are situations or human beings or circumstances where survival of some sort requires a sort of neurosis. It doesn't mean that health is always the way out, or good health or sanity is always the way out. That's not life, because life is the combination, of course, of the madness and sanity. With regard to child rearing, I have tried, I hope, not only formally, but in fact, to convey to my children who are now twenty-six and twenty-four, that they are to develop as independent beings without any sense of obligation.

Personally, I derive a lot of joy from being very disciplined. I'm sure that I generate some “not joy” to other people around me who live closely to me, you know, specifically my husband and children, by being such a disciplined person, because that can be a pain in the ass. I do what I say and I do it just as I finish saying it . I fix things and I put order, but, of course, that gives me pleasure. It is my mini-neurosis, but we all recognize there are many benefits they put out."

LISA: Sam and I talk a lot about freedom and there is a great sense of freedom in structure for most, if not all.

"That's right, because it allows you to navigate. Without order, there is no movement and there is certainly no movement toward what you presumably want. Fundamentally, I derive great pleasure from that; great pleasure from the notion of work. I don't think much in terms of happiness, for example. I can certainly feel a moment of openness in the chest, or a feeling of flying, of course, but happiness is not so much in my vocabulary, perhaps because I am just of a serious disposition. That's just character. Some people are more serious and some people are more light footed and just delighted by everything." 

But don't you feel happy at the piano bench or with a book, even in the angst of it? Even in your seriousness? I've been with you on vacation when you've excused yourself to go study piano, because that is happiness for you.

"Of course, but that is work! Nietzsche said something very beautiful. It is a little parenthesis. He said that beautiful things make one love life, even a beautiful book written against life. That's wonderfully put, no? So I am just speaking for a moment, adopting the pessimist's perspective, that there are plenty of marvelous things to be elated about so whether I make the moment for myself for the small moment of elation or of achievement or if I rely on a beautiful book or an artwork. There is plenty to marvel at, of course. Absolutely."

It's funny. I know many in my life wonder why I choose to be so serious and am constantly turning stones and asking the questions. I am asked often, “Can't you just go out and enjoy life and not ask so many questions?” But it is not who I am and it is not where I derive pleasure in skipping the asking and the questions. I find great peace from retreating and going within and giving space and voice to the places within me that don't completely open up for other reasons. Even here twenty years out from when I was first diagnosed with cancer and have moved through that in so many iterations, I can now go be in a hospital and not have the same post traumatic stress disorder symptoms, but it doesn't go away completely. It formulates part of the experience and I think part of how that now defines who I am is an element of seriousness in who I am and my retreating. Perhaps it is what Lisa and I see in each other and can connect [around] and you and I have always have this unspoken connection that I see in you something that I see in myself. And so that's where again it goes back to [how we view all of this as an] individual.

"It's an enormous privilege. I mean, what can be a higher privilege than the luxury to question when some people are too tired to think? Some people are too tired to think, because they work very hard. They put their head down and they fall asleep, because they have to wake up and get tired again. It's an enormous privilege to not only accumulate, but also be able to process. Socrates said that the unexamined life is not worth living and only human beings have this privilege.  Whatever number of years there were to conduct anything else the way he lived his life, or the way Plato showed him living his life, was him examining all the time. That's all Socrates did. He went to the marketplace in the morning and he hung out with people, raising questions such as, “What is justice? What is friendship? What is goodness? What is the best political system?” The Platonic Dialogues are each expounding on one of those topics in dialogue. So that's all he did. He did nothing else. Of course, most important was his dialogue on love, the symposium where the Greek notion of love, which is so different from what we understand as modern love, which is all about instinct and all about suddenly tapping into some need from childhood or something like this. The Greeks had nothing like it. It was all about education and raising oneself to something higher and finer.

But to get back to us, it is an enormous privilege, obviously, to be able to analyze and englobe and contain and really barely digest; if anything digest, but not expel. To rearrange in a way that is internally more beautiful and more suitable, that's a dream, really. That's a philosopher's dream to have an internal arrangement that, even when painful, is still beautiful. It's the chains that are still beautiful, because the circumstances and what happened to us we can't control obviously. So what happens is the chains and what you do with them, of course.  It's all very nice and very beautiful and very interesting.

You are doing your own modern day Socratic Dialogue if you think about it. You go from town to town and interview. But, of course, the big difference to relate is that the questions that Socrates raised in the marketplace with the young educated men of Athens, in the attempt to make better citizens out of them, and I suppose better human beings since his whole approach was therapeutic and educational. He wasn't teaching something that he knew. He was trying to get to something. What we today would call values- goodness, justice, moderation- at the time, the notion of value did not exist. There is no Greek word for value. Value is a modern invention. All those, at the time, were truths. That was true. That is, the question of what is goodness looked for a definition of goodness.  That would be THE ideal definition in which anything that can be characterized as good participates to a certain extent in that ideal definition and obviously this does not exist in life. But this was the whole notion of THE ideal of justice, THE best city, how do we form the best city, THE ideal friendship, and this was something toward which you tended, toward which you aspired. The desire was for that, for love at its highest. Those were all objectively superficial conversations to the extent that they were looking for the objective, for the object goodness into which for the principle of the concept goodness anything that you could call good participates if you can relate it to it.

Nowadays, every conversation that we are having in this way is a completely subjective conversation, of course, and not objective, because it is my truth and it is my freedom and this is how we live in the modern world. You know, we have been disattached, Last Cut, or God left us or God left the Western world or we killed God, as Nietzsche would say, so the total final cut. So we are unmoored, as they would say, now everyone is unmoored. There is the family. There is the shrink, but you have to pay him, so I don't know. The unmooring, of course, is also what contributes to the confusion. In other times, people knew when they were born that this was their guild, this was their life and they had a profession and this defined them. Some people moved around, but not many. Today, everyone can presumably do anything and everyone is equal to anything. Presumably we live in a meritocracy where anyone can get anywhere according to their virtues and nobody is anything, everyone is a brand. Of course, there are people who do but...

So yes, you are conducting your own Socratic experiment and that is a very nice way to think about it. Why not? You are addressing very essential questions that typically one doesn't have time for, or one has time at the shrink but, you know, we are such a problem solving oriented population that, even at the shrink, I don't know if people talk about this. Usually they just want to resolve something. This would be the epitome of luxury, a conversation like this, because then you are acting as my friend and my doctor and my teacher, or backwards. It's symmetrical, but that's a rare thing to find, of course, those relationships. So it is a very valuable service or contribution or activity." 

LISA: Maybe by virtue of what you are saying, it is a responsibility, too. The responsibility of the privileged life.

"By all means! Very much so. Yes. Yes. That's the only pity that there is, is squandering the time. Using the time? There can't be anything better than using the time. The time goes, so if you use it, then you are doing something. In fact, in the department of accumulation, I operate very much through the motto that everything that is lost outside, is gained inside. That's exactly what you are talking about, obviously, because everything that is lost outside, physically, spiritually, psychologically, circumstantially, is inside. So, you know, the fifty-five years that I have been here, it's all totally here {gestures to heart}. Nothing has been wasted or gone to naught. It's all been rearranged and reinterpreted."

And we constantly reflect back on the points and, even if it doesn't feel as if there is a huge shift, I think there always is a different lens.

"Oh for sure. And then I assume, I don't know, but I think that with age, also, since the physiology changes and everything, that there is some further arrangement waiting perhaps, behind the curtain; some greater wisdom and some greater tranquility. I think that would be nice. I've seen it in some other people. Not that they've reached some stoic sainthood or anything, but they've become wiser and smarter with age. So, that's to look forward to."

That's something to hold up in the clouds. 

Stephanie Ramirez

On April 6, I received a direct message on Instagram from Stephanie Ramirez. She wrote, “I’m 23 years old and I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I underwent a double mastectomy. I’m comfortable with the way I am and did not undergo reconstruction or plastic surgery. Your pictures help me a lot and just thank you so, so much.” I was touched and knew I wanted to meet this young survivor. She finished her chemo in July and finally, last week, Lisa and I met her and her mother in their home. Stephanie is such a bright light. Within two minutes in her presence, it was clear why my daughter said, “She is my favorite role model” after seeing one of her photos. Her battle to love herself and how she regards herself in the mirror is a universal one. The way in which she landed in her power through her bout with breast cancer holds lessons for us all. She also reflected back to me that, even in those moments when I think that having my chest photographed and sharing on Last Cut is utterly self-indulgent and unnecessary, I should keep going. I am making a difference in someone’s life. We all can. We all do when we show up, open up and connect in whatever way we can. 

Why don’t you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your story and how we ended up here?

"My name is Stephanie Alexandra Ramirez. My parents gave me a long name. I am 23 years old. On March 23 [2016] I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was weird, because at the beginning of the month, I had not seen anything on myself. As I was stretching and getting ready for the day, then I saw a lump on my right breast. I pushed it and it was hard. So, at first, I did not know if I should worry. Then I thought, “Oh God. Is this the thing that people talk about? That lump they say that they feel?” Then, I thought, “Ok, don’t freak out.” I thought maybe I had hit myself at the gym. I had just started to work out more. The lump felt wrong. When they diagnosed me, it happened the day after my sister’s 22nd birthday. That was really hard, because we had been fighting the day before. I had my parents and her go out to dinner [without me]. I thought, “Uh. I don’t need this.” Then the next day, I thought, “What if I am taken away? I messed up. I shouldn’t have been that way.”

My doctor called me. It was my primary physician and it was an accident. I wasn’t glad that I heard the news, but I am glad it was from her. I have a relationship with my [primary] doctor that I am so thankful for, because without her telling me to go and get [my lump] checked out, I wouldn’t have gotten it checked out. She thought it was benign, but said, “Let’s get it tested.” I thought, “Ok. That’s fine.” Then the doctor who did the biopsy told me, when he found it, “Well, I am 99% sure that it’s non-cancerous…that it’s benign,” but when he said it, it sounded weird. The options were meeting with a surgeon to make an appointment to get it taken out and then watch it over the next six months or we can just leave it. It just didn’t seem right. Then I asked about the 1%, and I asked him about that possibility. He said, “Yes, but it’s just slight. We can just see how it goes.” I said, “No, I want this taken out. I don’t want to worry about it later.” It grew so fast. I hadn’t seen it at the beginning of March, and then I saw it. It wasn’t there before. There is something wrong. My mom says it was my guardian angel that was looking out for me. Before I wouldn’t really say things. I mean, “99%? Everybody would probably just say, “Whatever. It’s fine. I am good,”” but that day, I just knew I had to ask.

When they called me, I was supposed to meet with my doctor that day too. I came downstairs and told my dad. My dad started crying. Then I started crying. I didn’t want to tell my mom, because I didn’t want her to worry. My dad asked if I had told my mom. I said, “No, I didn’t tell her.” He said, “We have to tell your mom.” So he told her when he went upstairs. I called my boyfriend. We had just celebrated our year anniversary that weekend. Our year [anniversary] was on March 19. I called him and said, “I just got a call and they told me I have breast cancer.” He was really quiet. I thought, “Oh God. He’s not really reacting. There is nothing happening.” He finally said, “Ok. What’s next?” I told him I had to go to the doctor and that I was going with my parents. I asked if he wanted to come too but he said, “No, I am here and need to get ready for work. I will talk to you later.” It was really quick, but, later on, I learned that after he got off the phone with me, he broke down and was crying. I had no idea. I felt as if he was so cold and didn’t know how to react. I know there is this thing that everybody says, “People react differently,” but my boyfriend is my boyfriend. When I heard that [he was affected by it], I felt better."

"So then I went to my doctor and met with my surgeon. She asked if I knew why I was there that day. I said, “Yes.” She asked how and I said, “My primary doctor called me.” She said, “I am so sorry. We never do it that way. I am so sorry that happened.” I told her, “It’s fine. I would rather have heard it from her than anyone else. I am glad I heard it from her.” She said, “Ok, you have Stage 2A breast cancer. It doesn’t look as if it went to the lymph nodes, but we will have to check them. We will have to remove it.” She gave me options for a lumpectomy. I saw my parents, who had come into the room with me and were sitting there trying to hold back their crying, and I remembered Angelina Jolie and how she did it. I thought, “I don’t want to go through this again.” It was quick the way everything happened. I said, “Ok, take them both.” My surgeon looked at me and said, “You don’t have to.” I said, “No, there is a possibility, and I don’t want to have to worry the rest of my life like that. My left is clear and my right is the one trying to kill me. So take that one for sure.” I didn’t want to put my family through it. That was the first thing that I thought of. I thought of myself after, which was really dumb. I should have said first that I want to be here, which I do, but I want to be here for them. I don’t want to have to worry. 

My surgeon wanted to talk me out of it a bit. She told me the next surgery date was that Friday, March 25 [Good Friday]. Then she pulled me to the side and had my parents go out. I finally broke down when they left. I know it’s a lot and I didn’t want them to see me hurting as much as I knew they were. So, when she talked to me, she said, “You don’t have to do this. You can just take the one.” I said, “No, I am really confident in this decision. I want to take them out. I don’t feel scared for it. I want to be able to do this. Take out as much as you can. Clean it up as much as you can. Make the skin tight. Please don’t leave it saggy.” She said, “Well, I can leave a little extra room if you want to do reconstruction down the line.” That wasn’t what I was worried about though. I said, “I am not worried about my breasts right now. I want to live and I want to be here. Please clean it all up.” I had a day to think and, on the day of the surgery, she asked if I was still sure about my decision. I said, “Yes I am. I don’t feel as if I made the wrong decision. I want to do it.” As I was signing the liability papers that day with my dad, when I saw, “If you die during the surgery,” that was my biggest fear. Am I going to bleed out? Am I going to die? She reassured me I was going to be fine.

The surgery took 5 hours. All of my family was in the waiting room. The night before my surgery all of my family came over. It felt like the Last Supper. They were all looking at me. They were all praying. They were all crying. My parents thought I got freaked out because I went up to my room. I said, “No. I knew they loved me, but I didn’t know I meant that much.” Just seeing that and knowing that I am making a difference in someone’s life somewhere and seeing it amongst my family, I knew I had to be around. When I saw everyone all together, it solidified my whole decision. It was hard to see everyone that upset." 

"My mom told me that everyone was crying in the waiting room and she was doing her rosary. When my surgeon came out to the waiting room, she was bright and gleaming with a big smile on her face. I felt really good when my mom told me that, because it means she cares. I know they have to have the protocol of being to the point and not connecting with anybody. So when she told me that was her expression, I felt relieved that I was in someone’s care. Then I recuperated for a while. When I got the bandages off and was ready to take my first shower, it hit me. My parents had to help me, and I felt like such a baby. I have never passed out before, but I had the experience of almost passing out. Everything went white. My mom calmed me down. My dad had me take deep breaths. Everything came back into focus and I tried to tell myself, “Ok. I made a good decision. Don’t regret it. Let’s get through this first shower. You can do it. It is going to be like this.” My parents helped me. They clothed me. I couldn’t put my t-shirt on. I had T-Rex hands! Ugh. I didn’t understand it. I would try to reach for stuff and it was too far. When it came to using the restroom, I told them to leave me that little bit of independence! “Do not come in here, guys!” My boyfriend’s sister and my aunt are both nurses and helped me with the drains and the bruising. I was worried something else was wrong. 

For me, it came down to being comfortable with my new image. I asked the doctor if I would lose my hair. She said, “Yeah. Breast cancer. The chemo is strong. You will lose it.” She cut to the point. I asked again, “You mean nothing is going to stay?” She said, “Well, no, it is not.” My next question was, “Can I have kids?” She said, “Well, not likely.” That hurt. I was wanting [to have children]. I had wanted a family. I met the man of my dreams already. I wanted a family like that. It was hard because I won’t be able to bear anybody. I started crying and my parents saw me breaking down. That hit me. It was hurtful. I know she didn’t mean to say it that way. I didn’t want to leave that for later. I wanted to ask the question now. Maybe I should have waited, but I knew I had to ask. That was hard. I talked to my mom and my boyfriend’s sister. They both said, “Having a child isn’t what makes you a mom.”" 

"I am doing a Podcast for my project [for school about what makes a woman a woman] and I intentionally went after a mom. I don’t know if she saw me creeping on her [she laughs], but I said, “You, ma’am. I need to ask you the question.” One of her answers was “life giving.” Immediately I thought, “Well that is having children. I can’t do that. Does that not make me a woman?” Then, I talked to Timea, a breast cancer survivor I met through Instagram, and, when she heard “life giving,” she switched the perspective. She said, “No, it doesn’t just mean giving life like that. You are giving life to others. You are helping others. You are helping them live their lives.” You have inspired me and I have inspired you. It has been one of those things where [I knew] my perspective does need to change, and that was hard. I didn’t realize how close-minded I was until this experience happened. The person I was before would never have been ok with this. She would have tried to make it happen and try to do this or wear that wig. That was really hard. When they told me I was going to lose my hair, I told my sister she needed to shave my head, and she said, “Really? Are you ready?” I said, “Yes, I want you to do it.” So we made this whole thing and my cousin shaved his head with me. My boyfriend’s sister and her 7-year old daughter came over, and her daughter was really sweet. Her daughter’s words were something that really resonated with me. She told me, “It is just hair and you are still you.” Wow, she is just seven."

That is what my daughter said to me. “You are just mama.” We get so caught up in the other stuff, but at the end of the day, how we show up in the world is what makes us beautiful.  [Loads of crying happening all around]

"That conversation really helped me get through it all. I was really happy and said to my sister, “Ok, it is just hair. Cut it.” Then it came out looking pretty cool! I thought this isn’t too bad, and I started getting used to it. Then the third week after chemo, that’s when I started seeing my hair loss. I had joined support groups to help me get through it, and some of the women there said to me, without realizing or meaning how they said it, “Well, you are just going to lose your hair. Accept it.” It was a little harsh. Couldn’t they have coddled me a bit? I am hoping this is the last and only time I will have to go through this! Just help me out a little! I still had my hair when they said that, but then I started to lose it and that was hard. I was in the shower, which is the way I had been told it often happens, and then it started happening down there. It was like a dandelion, but when my hair [on my head] came out, it was a different thing. I rubbed it and it came off. So I talked to my dad and my uncle. My uncle was the one who told us to Bic it. I didn’t even know what that meant. He said, “You will have to shave it with a razor. Embrace the bald.” That was a real bonding experience for me and my dad. He shaved my head. I then took a picture and put my make up on and said, “I am going to make this work.” When I saw myself bald, I saw a different person. I did not think I would be able to be that strong or still wear a smile or put my makeup on. I remember thinking, “Whoever this is, I am all about this girl! She is a really cool person.”" 

"I then desired to see more people who had done this so I searched for other people’s profiles, which is how I found you. When I saw your profile, I saw how confident you were in how you looked. When you took those pictures lying down with the flowers and the sparkles, if I ever felt bad, I would look at those pictures, because it really helped me out a lot. I really appreciated those. They made me want to be confident. Then I saw Saga’s profile, another strong previvor I met on Instagram, and saw how confident women could be out and about in the world. I didn’t want to be cooped up in the house, because I was embarrassed about the way I looked. I am glad I am here. People don’t understand it and I get that. So I had to ask how else can I do it? You inspired me so much. So when you said you were going to come down to interview me, I was so excited. I reached out to so many people and very few reached back. I know it is a sensitive topic, but I want to talk about it. I want people to be open.

When I got the “ok” to go to the gym after being cleared after chemo, I told my boyfriend that I was so happy. This all had happened over spring break. I had just started getting into working out when this happened. I was at the gym constantly. I was getting ready for Coachella. It was going to be my first year. I was so excited. I was so excited to get my Coachella body ready! And then this happened. When I was getting ready [for surgery] and they told me they can sometimes take fat from your stomach and put it in chest, the lady said I did not have enough. I thought, “This is a compliment. I will take it, but dang, I had literally just started to get into shape!” If this had happened before I would have been fine and had plenty to work with. I would have been fine. So, I went back to the gym and my hair was barely coming in. I went with my dad and was excited. When I was there, I could see people looking. I didn’t have my makeup on. I am flat chested. I don’t have hair. I am stripped down and this is who I am. I have no eyebrows so you cant tell what my expression is. Am I mad? Am I angry? You can’t tell unless I am smiling." 

"My friend Sylvia works at a graphic design place and she gave me a shirt that says, “Fuck Cancer.” I thought that might have been a little much. I don’t know if I am that loud, but thank you! Then, one day, I went by myself to the gym and wore the shirt. No one really said anything and they were still staring.  No one talked to me. I went again and then finally someone came up to me and asked, “Are you going through cancer?” I said, “I just finished actually and I am doing well. I had a double mastectomy. Thank you for asking. Thank you for having the gall to ask me. Thank you so much.” He said, “I am glad to have asked. Can I pray for you?” He was on the weights and just asked me that. I want to invite people to ask me. I know cancer is such a hard subject to do. That has put it into a lot of perspective for me. Not a lot of people will ask. So when I came across your work and you are so open about showing who you are, I am inspired to want to show people who I am and what I am about now. When I did that, it really helped me out. My hair started to come back a little more. It is like a baby’s. I see babies and I laugh. I am competing with that.

My mom and I went to a medicinal place the other day for herbs. You saw that my mom has a strong personality. A woman went up to her and said, “That girl. That girl you are with, the one with no hair. Does she have cancer?” She just bluntly asked like that. My mom, in any other situation, would have gotten really defensive, but instead she said, “Who? My daughter? No, she doesn’t have cancer anymore.” She came over to me and told me what that woman had said and that the woman had told her that her sister had ovarian cancer. My mom was still heated from it all. I did not know how to react to it. Before I would have thought, “This is none of your business if I decide to walk around like this.” I am not normally too outspoken, but how this person approached my mom was not cool. When we were checking out and getting ready to leave, my heart was beating so fast. I was trying to decide if I should go up to her and confront her. My mom was ready to walk out, and I just knew I couldn’t leave being mad like this. I had to go talk to her. So I walked over and I said, “Are you the one whose sister has ovarian cancer?” I asked her the way my mom had described her asking about me, but as I did so, I realized I don’t want to be that person. So I asked, “Is she ok? Is she doing better?” She said, “ Well, she is doing better. She had an eight pound tumor in her and they took it out.” So I then explained, “I went through breast cancer. I had a double mastectomy. I had chemotherapy. I lost my hair, but now it’s coming back. I am feeling way better. I am feeling a lot more positive. I am relentless. I am doing better though and I hope your sister does better.” She went into her whole story about losing her husband to cancer and how her daughter who was no more than 10-years old was helping the sick aunt. I told the daughter she was very strong and that not many children would be able to help do that. It was an experience. I told my mom on the way home that I was so proud that it did not let that situation get the best of her. There will be people who will be extreme about my choices. Those are their opinions." 

"That is why I think of this as a blessing, because the person I am now, I admire her so much. I never would have worn the things I am wearing, this dress, going out in public, running a mile under 10 minutes, being this person. I am setting so many goals. I feel so much lighter. I feel so much better as a person. It is unfortunate that it happened this way, but I am glad it did when it did. Now I realize the rest of my life I can be so much more positive. I want to help more people. Before I was trying to figure out a degree that would help me earn money, but now I want to help. I want to give back to the people who helped me get through this. I want to help others get through it. I want to be able to apply at the hospital and help people like the older couple that was there when I was getting chemotherapy. He was getting chemotherapy and she was volunteering as a nurse. They were the cutest things. They saw me coloring in my coloring book and were just so sweet. Meeting people who were like that inspired me to not be ashamed to say, “This is what happened.”

So, I am really happy for this. It is weird. People say, “What? It is cancer.” [If this hadn’t happened], I never would have connected with you. I never would have reached out to you and would have stayed secluded. My sister told me to let people know and seek the support. I am so happy I reached out. I am so happy you are here. You understand what it is like to be diagnosed so young. It is different when you are older. I tried to reach out to people my age, but only Timea wrote back. She helped me out so much. I was struggling so much with my self-identity as a woman, seeing myself in the mirror without makeup and wondering, “I don’t know if I am a woman or not.” So for the podcast that I am doing, when I got the answers about “what makes a woman a woman,” I was told “beautiful,” “strong,” “resilient,” nothing about big boobs and makeup. I had my mind opened to the fact that there is more. I am a woman! When I am out and about now, people have stopped me and asked if I am a model. I never would have felt that way, but now I walk around with such a confidence. It is nice."

Yes, I can see you walking down a runway! When you find that confidence within yourself and it radiates out, it completely changes your external appearance. Whereas normally people are trying to fix it from the outside, but if you don’t do the work on the inside, it is challenging. You don’t even have to go through something like this to get there. The path is always different. You arrive at a radiance that can’t be touched by any make up counter or anything else. Last week, I saw the video that you posted where you were singing with no makeup on. It was extraordinary and then it was gone.

"Yes, I told my mom that I thought I looked too tired. I didn’t know if I sounded good. I got rid of it, because of that doubt. Now I want to do another one."

You are extraordinary. You can sing like nobody’s business and you are gorgeous. I felt so lucky that I saw that video in the two minutes that you posted it [before it was removed]. I sent it to Lisa, but then it was gone. When I used to hear that I was given a gift by what I was going through physically, I do not think I knew how to internalize that. Now, looking back, I can see the 20 years of health challenges with 6 major surgeries were a gift. They brought me to this moment, this specific moment, and the last 8 months of doing this project, which I feel is the beginning of the rest of my life. I wouldn’t have gotten to this particular moment if all that had not happened in the way that it did. I feel as if it is all a gift. We can’t regret anything. None of this would have happened. The fact that you are supported by people and feel so good within very much so on your own, it is a gift. It is a gift that you are so young and now have this good health and support to go out into the world to do something incredible. Seeing it reflected in you is giving me a renewed belief that it is all a gift and we have a choice of how we see everything. We can decide if we are going to allow something to weigh us down or decide to turn this pile of shit into something that is going to boost us up or bring something better to our life. The road there is not always easy.

"When I got that diagnosis, I wondered if I was going to be bitter and hate being here. My mom said she never asked God, "Why?" but I did. I questioned it and wondered, “Why me? Things were going so well. I had met such a wonderful man. My family is doing great. I have been doing well at school. I did so well on those midterms. Why? I don’t understand.” When you sent me that comment the other night saying that your daughter said I was one of her role models, I really appreciated it. The other night my boyfriend’s sister said that I was a role model for her young daughter. I realized that when Timea told me the thing about life giving, I am doing it and I didn’t even realize it. I want to inspire other woman. I want to inspire young girls like that, because now I totally fall out of the mold that everyone thinks society has conformed for us. I am glad that I look the way that I look right now. You really, really helped me so much in being confident about my body, because I never would have gotten here. I was so excited to connect, because you understood what I was going through. I would always go back to the pictures with the flowers and the sparkles."

"I had no idea that I was impacting other girls. My boyfriend’s niece has a friend and they were talking about the fact that I had cancer. They didn’t understand and were asking if I was going to lose my hair. So his niece explained it to her friend. She told her that I had cancer, got medicine and that’s why I was losing my hair. She told her friend, “It is just hair!” Her friend freaked out and said, “I would never be ok if I lost my hair.” She kept telling her though that it’s ok. It is just hair. The other night when we all went out, I went over there and was all dolled up. I saw all the kids, and they were all so excited to see me. They were all jumping all over me. In that moment, I knew I look this way, but it is about so much more. When you told me that about your daughter, I was so happy. If I can be someone for these young girls to look up to or other women to look up to, then I can rock this and I can be happy. One woman thought that this was just my look and that I was a rocker. So now I put on my headphones at the gym and just think, “Let them stare.” I went to the grocery story this morning with no makeup on. Let them stare.  I am healthy. I am here. My hair is still growing in. I don’t have cancer. If that is what you want to stare at, then ok. I am so happy that I can do that right now. I used to go out only if I had penciled in my eyebrows, but now everything is growing in a little bit more. My eyebrows are growing in a bit more so you can see my expression and understand how I am feeling.

I am so happy to have that and, looking back at that whole time, I realized that I have to be happy with me. I never thought I could get to this moment. I am going to be 24 next week and my parents keep asking me what to do for my birthday. I said, “Guys, I am just grateful I am here. I don’t know what to ask for. I am just so happy and you have sacrificed so much.” My dad does not have any more vacation time because he took it all to be here with me. I can’t ask for anymore. My mom isn’t feeling her best, as she is on disability. Now we are both twinning it on disability. She took care of me and did that for me. I am so grateful for everyone that helped me. I don’t think I could ever ask for anything more. Clothes? Yes, I could ask for that, but before I would have been more demanding and expecting of things, now I am just grateful for what I have.  I couldn’t be any happier. My boyfriend found my shirt and sports bra that had gone missing for a while and gave it to me yesterday. I was so happy! I never thought I could be this strong and resilient and happy and confident in my skin. This is who I am. I wanted to dress up for this [conversation] and show you that I am happy with who I am and that I did not let this phase me. Thank you for everything you did. Thank you, Lisa, for taking all of those photos and documenting this. I don’t know how you see through that lens, but everything you documented on her journey is so wonderful. I never could have imagined being so inspired by this. You guys are the perfect team."

Lisa: It is when you know you are with the right people. You were so taken by that day we did all of those photos with the different elements. We were in another universe that day. And you have to know that behind the scenes, she is not without doubt either. There are many moments when Samantha asks if we are really doing this and if there is a point. You don’t always know what you are doing or why you are doing it, but you just know that you have to do it. The other thing that I want to reflect to you when you were talking about people staring at you at the gym, the thing that came into my head is that the way you present now looks like a choice. It looks like a choice, whatever that choice might be interpreted to be, but there is a second meaning behind the choice. It is the choice to embody who you are, and that is what I am seeing. I started the day cracked open but, wow, wearing makeup today was a poor choice. This is extraordinary.

I don’t show my daughter much on Instagram out of fear of what she might then go seek out and find at this age. I think I had shown her one photo or one video of you and said, “Look at this amazing person that I get to go interview next week.” I want to reflect back to you that we can have a huge impact on people even when you don’t know that it is happening. Just being who you are and showing up as who you are in this new iteration of yourself and believing in yourself will have an impact on many. You don’t even have to try. It will be the extra bonus even when it is just going to the supermarket. I think the people at the supermarket staring are just scared. Maybe they have never had anyone in their family who has been sick or had cancer or anything even close to that? Not everyone will have the guts to go up and ask questions in a compassionate way because they are curious or because they want to know more. So I think instead they feel the shock of it and don’t know what to do with it. I walk through the world in the same way, wondering if people want to ask me questions. I wrote about it at one point. I wonder if people notice. 

What’s most true to you?

"What stood out to me with this one is my faith. It really tested it. At first I thought, “Ok. I believe in the idea of God and there is a cosmic energy and all this other stuff.” I believe that there is something out there that we can all go to. It’s funny because I told my boyfriend at one point that I feel as if people need to find someone to worship, like God, only when they need him the most. We were talking about that idea and how I did not know exactly what to do with religion, because I felt as if I was so lost. I knew there was something greater. I know. I just don’t know. It didn’t make sense at all. When this happened, I am falling back on those stupid words that I said and eating it right now. I feel as if I do need it. I do need someone to be there for me that I know can be there for me always, and that was God. So that was the biggest thing that was true. Then I met incredible people and all these people were falling into place. With my chemotherapy I did not get sick. I felt really good. I was trying to go for a run after my third one. I was trying to stay with it. I am able and I am blessed.

So many people prayed for me. My mom told me her family in El Salvador was praying for me, and my aunt’s family in Mexico was praying. That is nice and I appreciate it. The fact that they were taking the time to think about me made me feel so much stronger. What can I do with that? I thank God every day. We have this statue over there, Cristo Negro, and I make sure every morning I touch him as I go down the stairs. Whenever I am moving through that space right there I know I have to make sure I do the sign of the cross, because I know I am grateful every day for it. I am so glad that He let me stay here, meet people like you and do my best to be inspirational. There is more to do. My faith has gotten so much stronger and I am so happy that it has. Now I understand. It is unfortunate it happened this way, but I am glad it did. So that was something that was really true.

The other was my family, and the loved ones that have become that to me; all the people that I have met. My friend brought me something blessed from Mexico and she reminded me, when I was really down, to fix my crown and be the queen I am meant to be. So I realized that my family has become so much bigger than just the people that I thought before. [It is all] the people who have been there when I was sick and have seen past that and made the effort to come see me and try to be there and ask how I am doing and check on me and think about me." 

You spoke so much about the decision you made in that moment of your diagnosis. The other question I would ask you is what has been the most challenging part of focusing on the positive, staying focused and living up to the decision that you made. You made such an empowered decision for you, but there are moments when those decisions can be challenging. 

"Honestly, the biggest thing that has always affected me has been depression. I struggled with my self-image and everything when I was younger. I did try to take my life when I was younger. I still have the scars from it. That’s why I went and got my tattoos, as I thought I would cover it, but now I realize that’s a part of me. That is my biggest challenge and my biggest fear is for me to get back to that point when I was so low in my life. I especially thought that was going to happen here. I realized I couldn't [let that happen]. I survived once, and I was not going to let this do it again. I was not going to let this horrible thing overcome me. The biggest thing that inspired me was you and your photos. It was Saga. It was women like Timea. I am glad that I really reached out on social media through Instagram. It has really become one of the staples for me in becoming stronger. That has been one of the biggest challenges, to overcome those feelings and look for the positives. I have to stay positive. My grandma says that she thanks God every morning to be awake and alive. She is one of my biggest role models. I want to be the person that I am. I want to be sweet and loving like she is. I aspire to be like that. I knew I couldn’t let that depression get me. I don’t know how to let people see that part of me because they know what I went through before. I know that characteristic is in me, but I know so much better now that I don’t want to wallow in that and so I need to get through it. I go to the gym and I talk and I look for the brighter things in life and I am just so grateful for it. My friend told me there is a proverb for God and how he takes time for all the flowers. I want to be here to appreciate that beauty, so I need to overcome that. I have been doing really well and have been trying. When I have a moment, I will cry, be sad and depressed, but then I don’t stay in that mindset. I have to get through it. I have to move past it. I fight through it every day. I am glad to be awake. I am glad to take the day as it is."

You spoke a lot about the young girls and self-image. What do you wish you had known when you were younger that you learned through this experience? Something that you wish you had known all these years that would have made it easier.

"Honestly, I feel as if this is the same for a lot of people, but it is that self-image and being confident in who you are. That is who I really want to be and that is what I wish I had told myself when I was younger. I feel as if I could have avoided hating myself. I hated my nose. I would pick at myself for so many things. Now when I see myself, I love my face. I never thought I would say that. I love the way my body looks. I am getting back to exercising. I know it was a struggle and I had to overcome all these obstacles to appreciate who I am, but I wish I could have told myself these things when I was younger. Just to be able to accept who I am and know that things will get better with time. I know my parents told me that before, but I was so stubborn. Now I realize that I do want to believe that and relay that message to young girls. There is so much effort that is wasted that could go towards advancing themselves as a person. It is who they are and not how they look. You can be really pretty but have an ugly personality. Let things happen the way they will, and be thankful you are here. We are not guaranteed the days and we have to enjoy what we have now. I am really grateful to have this moment and be able to reflect on this with you." 

Was it worth it?

"Yes, I feel really confident. The nurses told me after I had the surgery that I could get prosthetics, but I am happy how I am. My sister told me that tops would fall so nicely on me. Now I just love the hugs. I look forward to them now. It is so much more intimate. I used to have that little barrier. Thanks, boobs. I appreciate how they gave me my boundaries, but now I am embracing experiencing every person for who they are. Now I love when I do hug someone. I am realizing that there is something to a hug that relays a bigger message. I am glad that I am able to do that. Before I would be awkward, but now I am happy to hug you. I am happy to put a bit of my personality on you. I hope that you take the best of me. I will volunteer for that. If there were a job for that, I would sign up. Professional hugger!"

Yes, everything feels so much closer to the surface. I can feel my heartbeat like never before.

"I felt so much more exposed. It is me. I am glad to see the little movements in my skin and in my chest now. This is really nice. I am glad for the person I see in the mirror now. Before I wasn’t, I was seeing the decision I had to make and made, but now I am so happy. I am so happy with the woman I am. I am glad I got the scars that I did. I did that to survive, but it impacted me in creating the person that I am."

What do you hope to do in the world?

"I honestly hope to be able to give back as much as the people I have met on my cancer journey have given to me.  I know it is going to be somewhere in the medical field. I have to do something there. I want to let the people who are going through it know that they can get through it, stay positive and do what they need to do, and that I understand. I think that is what people don’t have. We are all told when we are diagnosed that it will be ok and you will get through it, but you don’t know. Now that I am realizing I can give that perspective, I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to hopefully give back that way. That’s my biggest goal. I want to make people feel comfortable with who they are and just be happy that they are still here."

Samantha: You will do amazing things.

Lisa: You have a leg up. You are 23 and have this stuff sorted.

Samantha: I am so happy for you. Thank you. I appreciate all of your honesty and it was so good to be with you. This was a gift. 

Ronny Turiaf

When I had my jewelry company, Adesso, I had the pleasure of meeting so many wonderful people. In 2012, I sent jewelry to a stylist for a couple of NBA players. One of them, Ronny Turiaf, loved the pieces but beyond that, was moved by my personal story. We had something profound in common. We both were cruising along in our early 20’s, feeling healthy and well when we were told that we were sick inside and needed surgery. I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer at age 21, and Ronny, after being drafted by the LA Lakers right out of college at age 22, was told he had an enlarged aortic root in his heart that required immediate surgery. There is something life changing in feeling the fullness of your youth and then hearing the shocking news that something you cannot see or feel is about to change your life.

I vividly remember hearing my diagnosis at my best friend’s house in NY and I am sure Ronny can pinpoint the same instant. We both made it to the other side and are probably better for it, but the trauma of those experiences, including the total bizarreness of having your life turned upside down and then quickly put back together again with little time to actually process what happened, changes you. “I never really truly dealt with the ramification of having a heart surgery because it happened so fast. Next thing you know I am a basketball player and oh yeah, everything is good. It wasn’t until later on that I was like, wait a minute.”

Ronny called me for the first time on his way to the celebratory parade for his 2012 Miami Heat championship. We went deep fast and that call was the beginning of a lasting friendship. We understand and learn from each other, and crossed paths in this lifetime to encourage the doing of great things. It was at dinner about a year ago with Ronny that I first vocalized the dream of this project. And here we are. "Regardless of if you like it or not, life is going to take you on a rollercoaster and that’s what you are doing with Last Cut in my personal opinion. You are taking the wisdom that you have gained over the last X years to be able to empower other people to go for their own, and to express what has helped you and what you have dealt with so people can recognize themselves in you. I think that would never happen if it wasn’t for the rollercoaster you were on. That surrender…That’s what I relate to, not only you, and that’s why I decided when we talked about it…you know what? For me, that’s a rollercoaster right there, because it’s taking me into the drop where I am not used to talking about those issues or whatever it is, but I surrendered. Because if I am being put in front of that, I will try to work on it and try to seize the opportunity.”

Tell me about a notable last cut.

Ronny: "Oh man. Let’s talk about the one that I am currently in. Why not? I am going to take this opportunity that I have been trying lately for growth. So I think for me the latest one, [as] I feel like life is a series of last cuts, has been the decision that I made to embark on this journey of self discovery the last 8 months. After having a hip surgery, I came back to resume my NBA career in 2015. Things happened that led me to take this time to accomplish some of my biggest dreams, a most profound dream of mine to just basically live this… choose my own freedom…and just say no to just…say yes to my desire to just go and explore and go and look into meditation and look into going to the Seven Wonders of the World, spending time with my family, doing things that I knew that I neglected and that was not an easy feeling to live with everyday, when you know that you have neglected relationships with people and that you have neglected the part of you that wanted to do something else. So I think for me the decision to do that in November of 2015 was my last cut, my latest one."

What was the most challenging part about giving yourself this opportunity?

"How long you got? Oh. How long you got? I could start by saying the 10-15 times a day people are asking me why I am not on the basketball court. I could also just keep going and talk about the challenge of going through a 10-day silent meditation. I could go and talk about what is that result of seeing part of yourself that you don’t want to see. I could also just talk about realizing that some of those relationships, really truly feeling why some of those relationships, needs nurturing, needs redemption. And just a constant universe’s nudge to ask, “What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?” and not being able to formulate what is exactly happening, but knowing that you doing something because that’s what you feel you are called to do. It’s that frustration aspect that comes from having to quote unquote justify your actions and it’s like, “Wait a minute, I am doing what I want to do. I am not bothering anybody.” So it was the biggest challenge for me, compounded with the fact of that other part of me asking, “You know there is something else you need to do too. Right? There is that thing that needs to be addressed and that thing that needs to be addressed. Is that really what you want? Are you sure about that? Are you sure? Are you sure?” So it’s that constant triggering that forces you to refine yourself all the time. So that’s what it was. That were some of the hardest parts for me, but also that probably was some of the best 7 months or 9 months that I spent in my entire life, because I literally, I was free."

What did this last year look like for you?

"I did whatever, however, whenever I wanted to do every single day for the first time in my life. It was…it is truly magical. I am truly grateful to have been quote unquote forced a little bit to have been through that situation because I am truly grateful for that opportunity to have been able to do that, those experiences, the people that I have met, the stories that I have, where it has led me to be here today sitting with you to be able to share my story that has been uncomfortable to share--this part of me that nobody knows, but maybe my mom. And to be okay with that and be that excited about what’s coming ahead in the future and how everything makes so much sense all the way to the last breath that you have, it’s been…even if it is sometimes difficult, I truly feel as if I am in heaven. I somewhat, with the help of a higher power, I dictate in which direction I want to go."

Was there an immediate freedom?

"Fucking freedom. That’s what it was. Let me just back track. How I got there was the fact that…I really feel as if the universe is a funny energy…I always said that I wanted to play for 10 years in the NBA and it got to year 10, but not exactly how I wanted it. But at year 10, I was like, "Ok, it’s not exactly how I wanted, but it’s coming on 10 years. So I am just going to do what I said I was going to do after 10 years." When I booked my ticket, there was this sense of “Is this really happening?” But then as soon as I sat, which is my favorite, one of my top four or five favorite things to do in life, as soon as I sat in my seat on the plane, I was like, “Oh yeah…it's about to go down.” And every day I woke up and I did exactly what I wanted to do that day. Just picture waking up every day and googling things to do in every city that you go to. That's an amazing feeling and in the same token, having that voice kind of challenging you because this is something so brand new, so outside of my comfort zone to just really cut that cord. It's like, "Is this real? Is it really happening?" It definitely was a refining process. It’s not an easy thing to do. It’s very entertaining to see what comes up when you are willing to give yourself that space to really go forward with what you want to do. It is amazing how we have a preconceived notion about what we are supposed to do or what we are not supposed to do. It is very interesting. Once you get to that point, you see you can actually do it. We get a choice. What do we want to do with it?"

So it was worth it?

"Do you think that you need to breathe air? Do you think that you need to drink water? Hell yeah, man, it was heaven. It was the moment that I felt that I will never forget and starting now, going forward in life, my mindset on life is definitely altered, shifted, refined and my appreciation for life is even more, is even higher than what it was before and I beat out heart surgery so, geesh, man, life is good. 

I started to feel it right before [I took this time]. What do you value in life? Oh wait a minute. I remember just having a conversation with one of my friends from college. She told me one thing that has stuck with me ever since. She was like, “Ronny, in life you have non-negotiables and trade-offs.” I was like, "Wait a minute. What am I trading and where am I putting the value?" Whoa. Simplify everything. That is one of the most awesome [pieces of] advice that I’ve been given because for me it allowed me to put my thoughts, feelings, whatever you want to call that, together in a way that boom [snap] simplify…two boxes and, ever since then, it has been much easier to navigate through life because of that. It simplifies. Do I want this? Do I want to trade that off? No, ok cool. Next. So clarity, what has been such a crazy, recurring topic for me over the last 8 months. Clarity with what I want and what I want to accomplish, the fact that I matured as a man, that I see things differently and where do I want to go."

How did you start to tap into what the future looks like for you? What impact do you want to have in the world?

"It started with me going to this conference called Awesomeness Fest in Costa Rica and then being surrounded by 350 entrepreneurs in the world, trying to change the world. And it was the first time I felt like I was at home in a long time. Like oh cool, that’s what I want to do. That’s actually what I want to do everyday. I want to just take action to change the world in whatever capacity I can. If it is being a basketball player and inspiring people to go towards that, great. If it's that and coming back and doing this, great. If it’s that and stopping, great. I will be guided towards that path. I love the fact of being inspired by other people and that’s what for me those last 8 months have been all about. I went and I met with people that inspired me--- every single one of them. I flew to Argentina, Peru, Costa Rica, Canada, France, Carribbean, Europe, everywhere. I met with those people and I wanted to tell them, “I am practicing telling you, you inspired me. Wanderlust driven. My wanderlust is driving me somewhere and I am grateful to be in your presence because you are doing something amazing."

What is most true to you?

"I think for me what is most true to Ronny is the desire to never stop discovering and for me the discovery is limitless. Discovery of myself. Discovery of others. Discovery of what the world has to offer. This inner voice inside of me that is always giving me advice and direction of where should I go, where should I not go. I think that is what is most true. I love it and I am learning to really allow myself the space to take a full look, a 360 degree look, at what that journey is."

How do you stay in tune with that voice?

"It’s a really open ended question. I personally have daily discussion with myself from sitting on my meditation chair, listening to music and allowing myself to be moved and writing poetry to me just sitting once again in my meditation chair and gazing through the windows and letting my mind just wander on many things to me being in solitude in nature. So for me it is at that moment what is necessary to be done? Because just like me trying to stay in tune, there is also the flip side of the coin of me being out of tune and me not really feeling like I am doing the right thing or that I am in the right flow. I am constantly figuring out ways to stay in the flow and the constant effortless living that I desire to be into. I am always constantly doing that. I think that life all the way until today has taken me through a wide spectrum of endeavors that allow me to keep discovering part of what makes me who I am today. The constant denominator throughout that is solitude. For me solitude is the one aspect that I have and that I require and that I cherish to be able to have and stay in tune with that voice. Yeah, solitude. I am a lone wolf, I think, but I like to be around people sometimes."

How do you handle balancing life out in the world and the inner work?

"I think that’s the one thing that I have learned over the last 12 months, especially after my 10-day silent meditation, and with the dedication and devotion that I have to my daily meditation sitting. Being in tune with my body and really fine tuning that connection, and my action and my words matching. It usually translates into that feeling of peace and that feeling where everything is staying still around me and, my life is just going to a way that is effortless. And when I start to not match my actions and what I am thinking, I find that I just veer off the path and some things, little hiccups, happen here and there. I think for me the hardest part that I have to deal with is being in public and being someone that is somewhat an introvert when it comes down to how I am on a daily basis. It’s all when I am being triggered to be an extrovert and to be in contact with people. So I have found ways to stay true to myself, but to live a daily life like everybody else. It has really been a case of trial and error. I think it is way easier now to communicate. A friend of mine talked to me the other day and asked me, “Ronny what is the one skill that you cannot live without for the rest of your life?” And I thought about it and I’m like, "You know what I do not want to lose? The ability to articulate my process of thinking with calm confidence." And that’s where I feel as if I am getting closer and closer."

"I am learning to really allow myself the space to take a full look, a 360 degree look, at what this journey is."

"I saw one of my college teammates two or three weeks ago and he reminded me why a group of us got the NLF tattoo, "Never Lose Faith." And it’s not that I forgot but I was detached to it. So to see one of my college best friends for the first time since probably 9 years and to get a fresh reminder, I was like, “Yeah I will Never Lose Faith because I know I am on the right path. I am supported, guided by a large community of people that want to see me accomplish my dreams so I just need to stay true to that because other people want me to stay true to that and are going to help me go towards that and I need to stop thinking otherwise. And that’s it."

"When I won the NBA championship in Miami, one of the guys used to always say, “Weather the storm. Weather the storm. We will come out on top.” And that’s what it is. Let’s weather the storm. Let’s hold each other accountable, but also hold each other by supporting each other towards our dream. Life is more fun that way."

I am so grateful to Ronny and everyone else who has shown up in this space to share, support and relate. Being wholly honest about what is most true to us is far from easy when done internally, and sharing about last cuts publicly is a whole other realm of bravery and vulnerability. I am immeasurably thankful for the community supporting my love and dream for this project. Thank you.

Kimmay Caldwell

I first encountered Kim Caldwell, lingerie blogger and expert bra fitter, and her “Hurray Kimmay” blog on the Ana Ono Intimates Instagram feed. I was intrigued that Kimmay, not a breast cancer survivor, had featured the incredible lingerie line that I so love. After reading her post on post-mastectomy lingerie, I was further impressed that she does not allow photographers to Photoshop her body in photos anymore. Kimmay is here not only to talk body positivity, but is walking the walk. In her adorable, bubbly and deeply intelligent way, she is here to educate, connect and help women fall in love with their bodies. When Lisa and I were planning our Last Cut trip to NYC, I reached out to Kimmay about sharing a Last Cut Conversation. I had a hunch that this woman had much to say on the subject of last cuts and wanted to continue the discussion around lingerie and my changing body (a universal experience for most women in different phases of life). Lisa and I headed out to Astoria, Queens just hours after learning of the shootings at Pulse in Orlando. This Last Cut Conversation with Kimmay gave me hope in a moment of darkness. It reminded me that there are so many ways to be of service, to educate and to show up as a force of good in this world.  I am so grateful for all that Kimmay has to share. 

Before we launch into the questions, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

Kimmay: "My name is Kim Caldwell. You can call me Kimmay. I own two businesses. One is Hurray Media, which is a lingerie marketing company. I also have a website for women, which is called Hurray Kimmay. It has been around longer than Hurray Media. The website helps women say “Hurray!” inside, outside and underneath. I offer lingerie and bra-fitting advice and body positivity content, but I touch on so many other things. I like to say that the shiny object that I offer is bra information. If I say, "Does your bra hurt?" and you say, "YES." Then I can say, "Great. I will help you." That's the shiny object. It's useful. It's helpful. But then the gold that I deliver is all the other stuff that comes with that. How a woman feels about her body. How she interacts in her new world when she feels comfortable and confident and her heart is open. That's a whole new level. Beyond bra fitting, I also offer women's circles and dabble in style stuff. I'm also the lingerie expert for About.com and write lingerie articles for publications like the Lingerie Journal. So, there's a lot that I do. It is constantly content about lingerie, intimates and bodies, all day long." 

How did you get into that?

"I went to school here in New York City, moved here when I was eighteen, and studied Musical Theater. I was poor. I had no money. I could barely afford my $275 per month rent where I was living at 117th Street between 2nd and 3rd. If anyone is from New York, you will know that eleven years ago when I lived there, it was shady. It was shady, shady, shady. And I lived in a 6th floor walk up. We had bed bugs. We had mice. We had roaches. I was eating ramen all the time. I had no money. I was working, paying for my school and everything. I was financially independent at eighteen.

I was making about eight dollars an hour selling shoes and a friend of mine heard me saying that I was desperate to make more money. She said, "Well, there's this bra shop opening up downtown. Would you be interested in working there?" I said, "Does it pay more than eight dollars an hour?" She said, "Yeah, I think it pays ten." So I said, "AMAZING. I'll be there." I went down and got hired on the spot and was asked to take my top off during the interview. I thought, "I'm confused. This does not seem appropriate." But it was because she wanted to measure me and then it totally changed my life.

I think the most important thing that changed for me during that time was that I saw naked women. I was nineteen or twenty years old. I didn't know what women's naked bodies looked like except for my own and what I saw in fashion and health magazines. That's what I thought bodies were supposed to look like. So I was really hard on my own body. After a week of seeing pregnant women, old women, young women, women with cancer, supermodels, I was like, "Oh, that's what women's bodies really look like." And more importantly, I saw that even the women I thought were stunningly gorgeous, all had something negative to say in the mirror. I thought, "This is a giant waste of time. Nobody sees that but you." So I started my own journey of changing the way I talk to my own body. I realized that I could help other women do that while in the bra-fitting room.

That's how I started as a bra-fitter and was quickly recruited by Saks Fifth Avenue to work in their intimate apparel department. Then I was recruited by La Perla to be their brand ambassador in Saks Fifth Avenue and Bergdorf Goodman, and that's where I had my first on-camera experience where I was live on NBC with Martha Stewart. I was twenty-two and that was a giant opportunity. Then I did Tim Gunn's “Guide to Style,” which was really fun. And then I thought lingerie was just a thing to get me through college and said, "I'm out." But, after a year of trying ready-to-wear, I took a year off, well I actually got let go, and figured out what the heck I was doing with my life.

After that year, I went and got rehired at the same bra shop where I started. I went back and became their bra-fitter, store manager, marketing manager and marketing director. And that was actually where I got all of my marketing experience. Then, eventually, because of some situations with the company, I started my own business in 2014 and broke off on my own. So here we are in 2016 and I have my own marketing company. That's the route.

It's funny to look back and realize what brought me here, because honestly, I thought I was done with lingerie. I thought it was something silly. And now my life's purpose includes it. It’s nice to see the progression."

It sounds like a movie.

"I know. I've got to write a book. I mean, the life lessons that I learned in a bra-fitting shop are going to stick with me forever. My friend and I were reminiscing about how we felt like we were changing these women's lives. And we knew we were. We had women cry. I had a woman take me to the New York City Ballet to see the Nutcracker because she was so happy. It was crazy. They were so just so grateful. You spend 30 minutes in a bra-fitting room together and change their lives. They were just so thankful. We were reminiscing about how much service we were providing. Now, I think I'm just doing the same thing on a much bigger scale, because I realized that I couldn’t fit every woman in the world. It's just impossible."

What is most true to you? What makes you tick.

"I really and truly believe that undergarments can change a women's life and then she can go on to change the world.  I really believe that. And even saying that, I know it sounds silly. I sound like a kooky person. But, I've seen it happen. I think it goes to what I was saying about the gold and the shiny object. It goes beyond just a bra fitting. If a woman goes into any shop right now and gets a fitting, is it going to change her life? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm talking about a different kind of bra fitting. I'm talking about how starting with that layer, [that experience] can totally transform how a woman thinks about herself, about her body, about her worth, about her femininity, about her feminine energy. There's a whole possibility there that if you are working with the right kind of bra-fitter (and maybe they aren't all as spiritual as I am), that can totally change a woman's life. I know this is true. I know it because I've seen it. I've had people come back and say, "You know, I never thought working with you in the bra-fitting room and changing my bras would change the way I think about myself as a woman." It's a unique opportunity. I know that there are lots of ways I can help women, and a bra fitting just happens to be my favorite tool to do so. Other tools just feel more blunt to me, or awkward, or I just haven't learned to use them yet. But this is the tool that I have. This is the tool that I can use with precision to help that woman. It's like a scalpel for me."

So get more specific. I can intuit some of it, because I have experienced it myself. When I found Dana's bras (Ana Ono Intimates) after I had my surgery, I had that moment because, even though I don't have to wear something all the time, I wanted to be comfortable and have something that's pretty. [Getting these bras] was a complete moment of going from feeling like an outsider to going to feeling at home in my body. Can you speak more to your own experience? Go back to when you were 19. What were you thinking and working through personally that this process [of bra-fitting] spoke to and led you to start to make a shift?

"So let me include some examples from other people. Because what you are saying is so true, feeling at home in your body and feeling understood. The majority of people that I was helping were in specialty lingerie stores, where we had sizes A through N cup."

I can't even imagine what an N cup looks like.

"It's full. That's a full bust. That woman feels like a freak. So imagine this: Victoria's Secret is like THE bra company in the US and the world. And I live in a global destination in New York City where women would come from around the world to go to New York City to go to Victoria's Secret and think, “Oh my God, all my bra problems are going to be solved.” They think, “I'm finally going to find something that fits these awkward horrible boobs that I have.” They go to Victoria's Secret and think that all their problems are going to be solved. And Victoria's Secret has a very small size range, and then they don't fit into anything there. They decide that they must actually not fit into anything.

So, thank God there is a customer from [the shop I used to work in] that was working at Victoria's Secret that would send those customers to us. If they really didn't fit into anything, she would send them up and their whole life would change. Then I would hear, "Oh my God, someone get's me. Oh my God, something is made that actually fits me. I'm not a freak." So that's number one, just feeling as if you are understood and someone makes something that fits you well.

The other thing that I think is that there is so much shame and confusion around breasts. I think it starts when we are young and breasts really identify us. "Wow, I'm a woman now." I think some women identify with that really positively and I think some women don't. I've had so many conversations with women that said, "I didn't like them. They totally changed my role in society and I didn't like it."

And I had so many conversations with women about what cup size means. If you are an A cup, that means something. Usually, that means you are smart. You're athletic. You're not very sexy. You're probably a plain Jane. There are so many things that that means about her. Whereas if you are a triple G cup, you are probably a slut. You are probably a bimbo. You are sexy. You are loose. There are things that we tell ourselves about what that means and we have now been assigned by this [marker] on our body. And then also, [there is the issue of] not knowing how bra sizes work, which is a very common thing. I don't want to tell people that they can't fit themselves, but it is complicated, there are a lot of things going on."

You don't want to fit two people in your bra! We saw that last night [on the video from your website].

"Right! You don't want to fit two people in your bra. It doesn't fit. One person at a time! There's just a lot of confusion about how the hell your bra should fit. What makes it fit? What a size even means. "Is a G cup really a G cup or is it really four D's? I'm confused. Should I wear a 32 or a 34? I don't get it.” It's all really confusing. So when someone comes in and says, "Hey, it's ok. Here's what fits." And she feels, “Oh wow. A. You get me. B. I'm not a freak, and C. This fits like a fucking glove."

And so finally, the other thing that I think in general when I am helping women is that shame and confusion I’m talking about. I hear, "I'm awkward. This is horrible. This is uncomfortable. These things are in the way." Once she is lifted and supported and she is comfortable, she's like, "OH!" [gestures to chest and heart, changes posture]. She goes from hunched over and confused and hurtful, painful, and suddenly being able to stand tall. Her chest is forward. Her shoulders are back."

Everything opens up.

"Physically and emotionally, our breasts are the doorways to our hearts. So if you can imagine, if you think anything about chakras and even if you don't, just physically being able to stand up tall and have your heart be able to lead, it changes a woman's life."

When I got the silicone out, I realized, “Oh wow, not only could I draw a deep breath, but I felt my heart and everything felt open.” So, tell me about your own journey, too, and then we can weave into your Last Cut. For you, in talking about your own journey, does that incorporate a last cut, internally or externally, or is your last cut about something totally different?

"So, I think you know that for most of us there are lots of last cuts happening throughout our lives."

Yes, throughout our day, often. 

"Some are deeper. Some are longer. Whatever. The one I want to talk about is more current. I think it was just very obvious. Last night, I asked my friend, who knows me very well, "I'm doing this interview tomorrow, and I really think I want to talk about something, but what do you think? Maybe you can see something in me?" She said, "I'm not going to tell you what to talk about!" I said, "Come on, give me something," because she does a really good job of seeing me as me. So she said, “Starting your business,” which I agree with. So, I'm going to talk about that in a minute.

But in this particular journey, for me to even get there, it's important to add that when I was 19 starting in the bra-fitting room, I wasn't really kind to my body. I was a real bitch. I was telling it what to do and wasn't listening to it and was not honoring it. Totally took it for granted. Pushed it beyond what it could really do. I was working full time and going to school full time and going out, living in New York City and going out. I wasn't fueling it well. I wasn't letting it rest. I wasn't having a nice conversation with it. I was telling it that it was horrible, and that showed. I was underweight and, scientifically, icky. I was a total mess. So I started the journey by making the decision to treat my body a little bit better." 

Did it happen in that moment?

"It totally happened within that first week. I think like with any relationship, it wasn't overnight we were best friends again. I still was sort of a mean girl to my body; I had just started that shift. So it's happened over the past eleven years. I think it got really obvious and I started listening a little more when it started screaming at me. It was like, "Oh, hey, you've had shingles twice. You have vertigo. I'm screaming at you to stop certain things or I'm screaming at you to do more of this. I love this." I was not listening. And it was not good for my body. So about four years ago, I really had a hard conversation with my body. I was like "Body, what do you need?" I went to five doctors in five days, because I felt like crap and the doctors said, "Well, there's not anything really scientific happening here." It was my primary care physician who said, "I'm going to prescribe yoga to you.""

That's amazing. Lisa and I were just talking about the thread of yoga and returning to it.

"Yeah. And sometimes it takes our bodies screaming at us to go even when we know what is good for us."

Yes. That's what this project is all about. The truth lives in our bodies. I lived that for twenty years. I had thyroid cancer at 21, had depression and panic attacks, then had migraines for years and was heavily medicated. And it wasn't until I started to change the way I eat, started to exercise. All of that started to unravel relationships that weren't healthy. Closed my company. Quit other jobs. This breakup, that breakup. Huge unraveling of everything I thought was supposed to make me happy.

"And using the word unraveling, I love it. Because we start to spin it so tight that it takes control of our lives and our bodies start screaming at us."

And it's a fucking mess. It's not easy. We have a best friend who is a coach that I worked with for four years. And most weeks, I would show up at her door and then get into the fetal position for an hour and we'd talk about what's next on the list for project "take back my life." I think certainly for women we very much experience the rejection of our truth in our bodies and often it takes illness or some sort of mental un-wellness to get our attention.

"I totally agree. So [my body] was telling me, "Hey, I don't like some of the things you are putting in me." For me, that was dairy and some other foods, and I was having panic attacks on the train and on planes."

I just said that when we came through the Midtown Tunnel coming over here. When I was living here [in NYC], I couldn't go through a tunnel. I could barely get in a car. When I was close to your age, at that point in my life. I couldn't have sat in this small room.

"I think we, in our world, we see that as weakness. That's all in your mind. Get over it. Medicate it. No knock on medication, but I was really sick of treating the symptoms instead of the issue. So I had to unravel. I had to ask, "What's really going on here? What's really happening inside my heart and inside of my body?" Some of it was that I was not happy in the job I was in. Even though I was doing good work, I was not satisfied with some aspects of it. I was pushing my body and myself into a direction that it didn't want to go. I was forcing myself. I'm loud so I did a really good job of out-louding my body for a while, telling it to shush. "I know what I'm doing. You shut up so I can continue doing this thing that's not really healthy for me." Until finally it said, "I'm louder than you." In a moment of slight weakness where I was quiet for a minute, it would speak up and I would be a complete disaster. I think if someone knew me four years ago, they'd think I was a totally different person. Especially if they knew me on the inside, they'd see that I'm a totally different human.

So, going back to when I was twenty, here I was telling my body what to do. Telling it was wrong, forcing it to do things. So I started that journey toward realizing that it wasn't healthy for me to talk in a certain way. And now, just about last year, I realized that I needed to have that same conversation, but with my inner self. I realized that I had made this beautiful relationship with my body and was on my way to feeling that we are best friends. We have a great time together. We have our off days, but most days we are great. I mean, some days you hate your best friend. It happens, but we are getting there. But with my inner self, I was still a real mean girl. I was telling myself, I wasn't doing enough. I wasn't trying hard enough. I just wasn't enough. So I started that beautiful unraveling process about a year ago, and holy fuck, that's hard. And you know what? I think I made so many beautiful positive changes leading up to that particular realization that I wasn't being super helpful to myself inside until I think I was finally ready for it. I think I had so much other crap to deal with, and things to do, and putting myself first physically. I was finally able to see that [the relationship with my inner self] and deal with it and not have a total meltdown." 

We were talking about that last night at dinner. How things happen in phases often so that we can get to a place of being ready to handle the next thing.

LISA: That's the wisdom. There's wisdom actually in the process of any of these big unravelings. Because if we took it all off as an onslaught at once, if we lived all five stages of grief at once for example, we wouldn't survive. And so we vacillate between them. These massive changes happen in waves, because we couldn't do it any other way.

"So waves are a great way to put it. I also see it as a growth. I feel like I'm growing every single time. Growth is uncomfortable. It's hard. I think I was expecting myself to just be grown. This is a little off-topic, but I think it is important to say. So I do these guided visualizations for women's circles and I have to prep for them and be guided. In one of them, basically fairies are leading us. Go with it, whatever. So we are in this garden and we are talking to this plant that is sick. We are asking it what it needs and it needs to feel home and to feel loved. And that made sense, it needed to feel nourished and loved in order to be beautiful. And then there was a plant that is thriving. I saw this massive tree. This giant big tree that looked like it was a hundred or something years old was big and had a thick trunk and giant roots and tons of leaves and vines growing and it was complicated with so much to it. And so I asked this tree, “How did you get to be so big and thriving?” And it said, "Whoa. Whoa. Wait a minute. I'm still growing. I grow a little bit every day." And that was the most beautiful message I had ever received, because I think I was expecting myself to be grown."

Right, we assume it's a finite process.

"You can't expect yourself to go from sapling to tree in a day. It just doesn't work that way. You have to allow yourself the time and give yourself the nourishment to grow and grow and grow. Right? And that came from within me. The answer was there. I just had to slow down enough to hear it. So that's the process that I'm in." 

It's cool to me, as the mother of a nine year old daughter, and just knowing where I am in life, just a little bit ahead of you going through the same stuff. I love seeing the different points in time and in life that the same things are happening in you. That you are on that path and that you are on that growth curve ten years ahead of when I felt like I was there. That gives me hope in the world where there are things so heavy and hurtful that are happening. That was the whole point of doing this project. How do we create community around this process of the stripping away to get to the point of living who we each individually are? Because it is a hard process.

"Thank you for saying that. I actually feel extremely fortunate that I was nineteen or twenty with that first realization about my body, because a lot of the women that I was helping in the bra-fitting room were like fifty-five and had never started that journey with their body. Then they had passed on that shame and confusion to their daughters and their granddaughters."                    

Right. They were probably in ingrained marriages that were defined around a certain body sense. 

"Yes, and they didn't have the inner resources to make a last cut. So, there were reasons, usually external, but let's be honest, there were internal reasons as well that she was coming to me at fifty-five. Usually, her kids were out of the house, she had time and, because she was fifty-five, she'd accumulated some resources and had some wealth. She's also fucking desperate, because her body has changed for probably the fourth time. She thinks, "I don't know what to do with these. Fix them." She's says, "Help me. Oh my god. " So she comes in, and I have this conversation with her and she's like, "I've never had a bra fit this well in my life. I can't believe I waited until I was fifty-five," and then we have the conversation about her as a woman and her as this and her as that, and then she says, "I have to bring my daughter in to see you." I say, "Yes please! Please let me help her at twenty instead of at fifty-five. Please let me talk to her and change her life at twenty because then, holy crap, we can change the course of the women she talks to and the kids that she has." It's like a little sunbeam, right, if we are the sun and we cast off sunbeams until everyone is covered in sunbeams and we all feel a lot fucking better. So that's what I mean by how I think bra fitting can change the world. Starting there. Do I think we are going to change every problem in the world with it, no? But I do think we each do our part."

So in terms of your definable Last Cut moment and starting your business. How did that transition go? And how has it been being on the other side of walking away from what you were doing and doing your own thing?

"I am probably going to answer three of your questions at the same time. I want to be careful about how I describe the [company that I worked for], because I care for them deeply. But they were like a bad boyfriend. I was remembering the good times and a purpose in life that was very strong and wonderful and I identify with it so much. But they were making promises that they couldn't keep. It was comfortable, but not really right anymore for growth in my life. It was just not right. I think it was, again, like a bad boyfriend. My friends would say, “Why are you still working there?” as if to say, “Why are you still with him?” And I would say, "Well, it's not as bad as you think. There are still good things." It's such a beautiful parallel.

I was basically my boss' right-hand person. I put my blood, sweat and tears into that company and wanted it to be awesome. They were very popular, but they made some financial decisions that put them in a rut. They had to downsize and they didn't need a marketing director anymore. They were closing two stores. So my boss offered me a position as a fitter in the store again. I said I would look for another job, but he really wanted me there. [And as soon as I was back there], the more I thought about it, the more I thought, “What's my purpose? Can I really do that working for someone else? You don't have kids now. You don't have car payments. We don't even have a mortgage. So this is the time to be risky.” I thought long and hard about it. I'm a spiritual person with a strong faith, so I prayed about it. I meditated about it.

One day, I was fitting in the store and this beautiful woman came in. She was the producer on Tim Gunn's “Guide to Style.” She was the woman that I had worked with seven, eight years before and she was said, "Wow. You're still in the bra world?" And I said, "Yeah, I was a marketing director and now I'm back here temporarily. I'm thinking of going out on my own, but I'm not sure. I'm nervous." She said, "Just do it." I said, "What?" She said, "Look, I want you here as my fitter because you are great, but you've outgrown this. It's not for you anymore." This is a woman I barely knew. She was like an angel. There were a million arrows pointing towards leaving. I could fit a woman with my eyes closed. Was there more to gain there? Possibly. But I'd really wrung it dry.

I talked with my husband and I had actually really been trying to get him to leave his job. So I said, “Let's just really disrupt our lives.” It came down to something silly, by the way, that I left over. We all know it was a bigger thing. But it came down to scheduling. I said, “Listen, I can't work with clients and not know my schedule. I have to have set days.” They said, “That's not the way it works here. So I said, "I guess I'm out." It was really silly, but it needed to happen. And I told my husband, “Hey just so you know, I left my job. I'm going to take a giant pay cut. I have one [marketing] client left.”

So, he said that he would stay at his job, even though he was miserable. So that was a Wednesday. The following Wednesday, to the day, my husband was let go from his job. Two weeks later, on our wedding anniversary, I lost my only client. I was like, “Ok, we are fucked.” I had, in my opinion, two options. One was to go get a job where I knew I could be successful. I knew that fixed mindset. I could go sell lingerie and be successful, in wholesale or retail. I have the experience that I could go to any store and try to get a job. Or, I could try to grow my own business. This is something I knew I could do, so I needed to really see if I could do it. This is the time to do it. So I basically spent August through December 2014 just trying to keep my head above water. Just trying to pay my bills. It was nuts. It was crazy. And I grew a lot. It was so uncomfortable and so hard and so exciting and I grew. It was the most growth I've ever had in my entire life. And growth is scary.

And so once I knew I kind of proved that I wasn't going to drown, I spent 2015 really learning how to be a businesswoman. I knew about lingerie and I kind of knew about marketing, but I didn't know how to run a business. I really made the shift from saying I was a freelancer, or a business consultant, to saying that I was a business owner. It was a big mental shift for me to do that. I invested a lot back into my business. I made a bunch of mistakes. I made a bunch of really good decisions. On the same day, I could feel like super woman and like a complete failure. It was like a total roller coaster. Really 2015 was crazy. Like loca. Really loca. It was nuts. So then 2016, I'd paired down. I'd unraveled. I thought, "That was crazy.” And I survived. I grew a ton. So now how do I slow down and do that little bit of growth every day, instead of I AM GROWING!! So that's where I am now."

Sometimes when you rip the band aid off so early, it all has to be rattled so hard that it gets shaken up. Then, you learn to pace yourself. I love the parallel here with Ronny talking about the roller coaster in his conversation. I like to think about the distance between when you make a decision and when you either realize it was a great one or it was the worst thing in the world. Hopefully as we mature and grow, the distance gets smaller. You do not need to constantly do so much massive cleanup.

"I actually look at it as a pendulum. I was just talking to my friend about this last night where I said, "Listen, sometimes, if you are making a bigger last cut, or a big decision, you've pulled that pendulum really hard. So when you make a decision, it's going to swing all the way the other way. It's going to take some time to even out. " I'm still evening out. This all just happened two years ago. I think the first year was a giant swing. The second year was still a pretty big swing. Now I think it's coming down to where I can finally start to even out a little bit.  And, you know what? Then I'll probably make another cut and it'll start all over again."

Right. But has it been worth it?

"Yes. I just had seventeen days in Mexico and Florida getting paid to do campaigns with lingerie brands that I completely love and admire. They were entrusting me to take this on and to share it with my own voice and my own body on my own website. They were just behind the scenes. And with the permission of not photo-shopping my images in any way, I am spreading this message that you can be who you are. What a beautiful gift I was given. That's worth it in a huge way. Four sponsors paid for me to go sit on the magical beach of Tulum. That's nuts. So, even on the days when I am overwhelmed and I'm working seven days a week, it's totally worth it.

I love the term last cut, because it really feels as if you've made a wound. In a good way. When I left my other job, I really felt like I cut off an arm. It was my identity for a long a time. My face is still all over their website. I think it felt like I cut off a limb. I'm still healing from it. And I think I am growing stronger. It's like any kind of working out. You have to tear the muscle inside a little bit, and then you get stronger. I can tell you 100% it was worth it. Even if it all goes to shit, it was worth it."

I have one last question for you. I loved the fact that you were photographed in the Ana Ono Intimates and spoke up about the experience of a post-mastectomy woman (when you are not one). I have made the decision to put myself in front of the camera, as I feel my vulnerability gives strength to other women. Why did you make the decision to not only speak of lingerie, but also to show yourself (unedited, no Photoshop) in intimates on the blog?

"For eleven years in the business, I never had any pictures taken of me in my underwear. I don't think that people have to show their bodies in order to prove that they love it. But I was given the gift of seeing other women's bodies without Photoshop or anything when I was in the bra-fitting room, and I thought that other women don't have that. So I thought, can I be of service? [The shoot for Ana Ono] has already served such a purpose. Even if it feels a little obnoxious, choosing the title "The most taboo lingerie I've ever worn” was to get people to look. The purpose ends up being so much bigger than you seeing me in my underwear.

It's already made a difference with the men in this building. Introducing myself as a lingerie marketer brings up a lot of things. It brings up, "Oh, do you need an assistant?" "How does it feel working with panties all day?" I have to decide how I want to steer them. Do I want to steer you toward, “Oh, ha ha, it's fun," or do I want to steer you toward, "It's great. In fact, I just took pictures of myself in my underwear the other day for this awesome company that makes lingerie for women after breast cancer. And gosh, we've just gotten the best responses and it's opened up the best conversations. So if you have a woman in your life who has been affected by breast cancer...?"  And they respond surprised, not realizing that we were going to go there. It is a beautiful opportunity. I was talking to these four guys about what happens in breast reconstruction while we were standing by a beer pong table the other day. They said they had no idea it was not just like a boob job. They had all these questions about the process that women go through. They asked about tattooed nipples. We had this great conversation. So, I don't think that would ever have happened if I hadn't agreed to pose in my underwear and do that post on my website about it. I think I am doing a significant thing. I hope it is significant and not just vain. I think it is significant."

I ask myself this every day.

Josette Tkacik

I love to dance. I have since I was a child. The dance floor has always been a place where I can easily let everything melt away into a state of unaffected bliss. As I have gotten older, I have found I can connect with that feeling in a club or at a party, but rarely in a class anymore, because too often the focus is on the mirrors, body image and how everyone looks. However, a few years ago my dear friend Anne Van de Water invited me to Zumba class at our local rec center. Given my love of dance, I accepted, but I will not lie about the trepidation I had of finding myself amongst a bunch of women stiffly staring at themselves in a mirror. Josette Tkacik and her Zumba revolution proved me wrong and blew me away. Josette's Zumba class is nothing reminiscent of a local rec center aerobics class or any other dance class I have taken for that matter. You feel as if you are transported to Ibiza. Six days a week, Josette pulls hundreds (yes, hundreds) of people onto her dance floor and leads them through an hour plus of pure joy and complete celebration of life (and it is a most killer workout). She does this with her expressions and a whistle, not a single word is used during class, and there are no mirrors to be found anywhere in the ballroom. Egos and all other life stresses are checked at the door and, honestly, the most diverse group I have seen in Santa Barbara collectively dances their asses off with beaming smiles. What happens in that room is nothing short of magic, but is also purely the result of what Josette has cultivated in her own life. Diagnosed about five years ago with mobility threatening rheumatoid arthritis, a dancer for life, Josette opted not for a hefty pharmaceutical regime, but her own recipe for healing. So instead of leading class with a mic from a wheelchair, she dances her butt off every night in celebration of her own new lease on life. Her beauty, wisdom and joy are contagious. I am grateful for the opportunity to share this Last Cut Conversation.

What is a notable last cut you have made?

Josette: "I find that I have spent so much of my life kind of focused on what everybody expects of me instead of staying true to myself. I know now that love is energy, and I know that we are love so we are energy.  And I understand that when we are on a higher vibration and we are true to ourselves and we speak, act and live from a love standpoint, we are at the highest vibration we can be. We all know what that feels like. It feels like bliss and it feels like joy and it feels like laughter. So my last cut, and this is recently within the last couple of months, is a commitment to start my day up and stay as high as I can unconditionally, not letting any of those other conditions affect me. So if there is a lot of traffic, I kind of figure out a way to make it funny. So if I am late, it’s funny.  Being unconditional with staying at a higher vibration has been the last major last cut." 

It can be challenging to stay there when you are out in the world and not everyone is making the same choice to keep it high.  How does that work?

"That is where I come back to unconditional. When you are living in a house, there are all these conditions. There is all of this stuff with conditions. For me, unconditional is that it doesn’t matter what everybody else is doing.  The only thing I can control is my own vibration.  If I stay high, they will eventually come to meet me, but I can’t help anybody else if I go down to where they are. That is where I realized that to be the best in my own life-the best person, best wife, best mother- I have to stay up here so I can keep it up here."

How did you arrive at such a clear awareness of how you want to live?

"That is easy. Everything got just about taken away. Everything. Everything. Everything. And I know you can relate to this. My body didn’t belong to me for a period of time. I was in so much pain. I couldn’t open a jar because my wrists were like baseballs. Having RA [rheumatoid arthritis], and I feel like this is so old news at this point, but for me that was the full paradigm shift. Little reminders. Little reminders. “Oh, you’re not listening.” So the universe just went, “Boom! Listen!” Everything that I identified with was gone. I couldn’t wear a pair of heels. I couldn’t even brush my teeth because my elbow didn’t work. I couldn’t hug my son, which was the worst. I couldn’t lift him.  And I started to ask myself, “Ok, is this is really it?” I wasn’t dying, but it felt like I was because I didn’t have use of a body to walk around in. 

So, you start to go, “Well, now, how did you use the time that you had and was it worth it?” Because then you start really realizing, we are here for a short period of time and then you think of all the stupid dramas and the stupid fights and the energy that was put in stupid places that become so irrelevant when all you want to do is hug your son. So, that for me was the shift, sitting in pain, being told, “You are going to lose at least 15 years of your life because of the pharmaceuticals. That’s the average loss when you are on the three drugs (the biologics for RA). You reduce your life span by about 15 years. That was the one choice.  Well, they didn’t give me any other choice. And that was me going, “Oh whoa, whoa, whoa…this is more than a wake up call. This is the end. You aren’t going to be able to wear high heels anymore and you aren’t going to be able to dance anymore.” 

That was the beginning of the journey. I was looking at my son and saying, “Why do I now feel like I am more and you are more than what everybody is telling me we are? And why do I not want to believe what they are telling me even though I am in this situation and dealing with it?” So that was the start to dig deeper and ask questions, ask more of myself. There are a few things that I absolutely know and I know we are all a lot more than we allow ourselves to be. It’s true.  I start to worry that people have told this story enough and it is great that people are inspired, but the closed mindedness in the medical community around this was [astounding].  There was a voice inside that said, “There is something more.” Then I realized that there is something more inside all of us, and it is all energy based. 

For me, my clear path [forward] was my son. There was no doubt. To everybody else I could disappear. Goodbye. I looked at him and thought, “He is going to have to be pushing me around in a wheelchair. No, no, no.” I wanted him to dance with me. I wanted to dance with him when he got married. I had to be at a playground. He was 2. There was no way I could not conceive of it. My heart could not conceive of it, and that is really where love can move mountains." 

How did you arrive at this place today where you are on stage leading hundreds of people in ecstatic Zumba dance and joy 6 days a week? You aren’t in a wheelchair and you are not on any meds. How did you do it?

"It was a long journey. It was the first year, maybe 20 hours in bed [a day], because it was so painful. My husband was here, taking care of our son, and we were getting financial help from family. We were borrowing money to pay the rent, and we sold pretty much every piece of jewelry, including family heirlooms, to put food on the table.  The whole while I am still here going, “I have to do this. I have to do this. I have to do this.” But there would be these moments where I would feel better and I wouldn’t feel so sick and it wouldn’t hurt so badly. I thought something is going on, something is happening. With RA it’s the mornings that are really, really bad. I never wanted to go to sleep because I was so afraid of waking up in the morning. Your neck. You can’t move and it hurts. The first movement is so painful. 

But I remember the first morning when I woke up and there was nothing. Nothing was swollen. I jumped out of out of bed and started jumping up and down. I was screaming, “It’s gone! It’s gone! It’s gone!” The first thing I did was to call the Arthritis Foundation and I called the doctors. I left messages for the doctors and when the Arthritis Foundation called me back, I said, “I did this. I did this and it’s gone. I don’t have any symptoms and you told me this couldn’t happen.” They said, “Well you have a temporary remission and those don’t usually last for more than two months so just don’t get too excited.” 

That was four and a half years ago. I still call them, but now they won’t talk to me.  They won’t talk to me. But anyways, the long story short is the journey was there, but at every tier, there was more of a purpose and more of a focus. More of a focus and maybe that’s where the pain fine tunes you, because it fine tunes your focus and you don’t mess with the small stuff. And what is that Chicken Soup Book? Everything is small stuff. Everything is small stuff and now I know that I can dance and I can share that elation and that life passion and that energy and that vibration with as many people as I can and then I can come home and play with my son and hug my husband and be happy, because that is all that matters. 

I feel really strong but it is funny now with all the attention with Zumba. Everybody asks, “What has a 47 year old mom got on a 19-year old hip hop dancer from Juilliard? How is it that all these people are coming to you?” They have to understand energy and they have to understand there is a reason we are all here. All I do is I just set myself on a high vibration. That is all I do. I just bring people up and that is the feeling. For me what I think happens in that class is that people are reminded who they are supposed to be and have a feeling of this joy that is supposed to be what life is all about. Martha Graham said, “People will always remember how you make them feel.” That’s so true."

"It is kind of funny because I studied theater. I was meant to be an artist, an actress, a dancer. I never in my wildest dreams… I mean, I knew I was supposed to be on stage making people feel something. I knew that was my calling. There was a video of when I was three that I would be dancing on the stage in front of people when they asked me what I want to be when I grow up, but it was never in the context it is. No and thank god it is what it is now, because it is so much more meaningful. That is how wonderful life and love and the universe is…when you become true to yourself, you are handed the things that you thought you wanted, but in a way… for me now I don’t care anymore. I can move. I am here and I am with my son. I am happy and healthy and everything else is just fluff and stuff.'”

What’s the best part of being on this side of the two last cuts of your journey? What is the best part of being you in this moment?

"The freedom of unconditionality. Is that a word? For me when I stopped blaming everybody else for what I was going through, when I stopped telling my husband you did that and it hurt me, when I stopped putting everybody else responsible for my joy and started being the creator of my own joy, there is such an immense freedom and liberation and truth and ultimately love for myself. I think that is the hardest thing to allow all that love and unconditionality to happen to yourself and giving it to yourself and being open to taking care of yourself in that way. Yeah, there’s always going to be people out there that are going to do things that you don’t want. You have to get to a point where, not that you’re resilient, because I still get hurt, but I understand that I can always go, “It’s alright. I can take care of myself.” It’s not a bitter place. It is a place of loving.  It is a freedom to not ever point the finger and take responsibility for your own life and joy. It is huge and I am enjoying it."

I was going to ask you what you would say to your son about what you wish you had known then that you know now, but what would you say to yourself at his age (age seven)? 

"I don’t think at seven yet I was too jaded about what people told me I should be. If I could meet myself at 7, I would probably grab my shoulders and shake me really hard and tell me, “You are absolutely right. Listen to your soul. Don’t stop and block everybody else out. Just do your thing. Don’t listen to what some people will say.” I was terrible at so many things and those stigmas stick with you your whole life, and little by little, it breaks you down. I knew I wanted to dance so why the hell did I even go to school? I still wonder. People lose themselves. You lose yourself in trying to be what you are told you are supposed to be.” 

Hopefully, now the message is “Don’t get taken off your path so far.” Because you’ll get a reminder and, if you don’t listen to the reminder, you’ll get a bigger reminder. And if you don’t listen to the bigger reminder, it’ll smack you upside your head. And if you don’t listen to that, you know, you’ll be lying down in a hospital. It will keep getting you until it gets your attention. I believe that’s what the universe does. It just got my attention. Maybe yours too.'”

What’s most true to you?

"Love. Easy. Love. It’s the only thing that is, that we are, that everybody is. Simple."

Sasha Markova

Recently @lisafield and I headed down to Echo Park to speak with my lovely friend and creative inspiration, Sasha Markova. I met @sasham237 through sweet mutual friends. Over the years, we have shared hysterical and meaningful conversations at many a birthday party and even a memorable night in Vegas that ended with Sasha presenting me with my very own custom "Not Guilty" t-shirt after hearing my story. (In addition to many other talents, Sasha's "I Love Boxie" project highlights her brilliant ability to observe, listen and magically put perfect words to what she sees and hears not only in her advertising career, but also with every person she encounters in life.) After weaving in and out of each other's landscapes with little regularity, last year Sasha led me to an oasis in Death Valley and inspired me to let my creative flag fly. I am so excited to share her Last Cut Conversation with you. She is here to do incredible things and, in very Sasha fashion, is able to express it all beautifully. 

Sasha: "Last Cut is about breaking the old story and removing the old tale. It is almost like getting to a place to give yourself permission to be the thing you always knew you were."

I was so happy to sit down and speak with my friend Sasha as she shared about her most recent last cut. Now that she is living closer, we have had the sweet opportunity to share conversation and laughs together in her Echo Park home. “I have to be in a place that is really creatively conscious and alive. Los Angeles and California is it for me right now. Everything that I am doing and thinking about is connected to other people who are thinking about the same things. It was ultimately about being in my creative home."

Tell me about a notable Last Cut you made.

"There have been several in my life. I have actually left a lot of things and started new lives but this was the one, this last one, I just moved finally to Los Angeles in October from London. This was the one that was less about the apparition of a dynamic change, the apparition of a cut, and more about a kind of arrival. It wasn’t a departure. And really it is kind of hard to explain. It was just a decision to be in a place where I could fully be myself. I wasn’t torn. I wasn’t living in an existence of “one day I will get there.” I just decided to be here and that’s what happened." 

"What I suppose I did this time I cut out the old story because it wasn’t working for me anymore. That really is the primary change you need to make. That is the ultimate last cut. Most of us live with stories and most of them don’t make any of us happy. Suddenly [I am ] understanding that wow, I don’t have to experience life that way anymore. It doesn’t make me happy. It’s not who I am. I choose contentment. I choose a new experience. I can do that. That’s really what Los Angeles is about [for me]. Everyone thinks Los Angeles is about a dream and it is, but it’s also a place where the dream is closest to reality. Last Cut is about breaking the old story and removing the old tale. It is almost like getting to a place to give yourself permission to be the thing you always knew you were."

What was most challenging about making this last cut?

"There is great safety in your old life. You know the rules of it. You know how everything works. You have lived in it long enough and you know the system. It’s like prison. You know which guard to be nice to and you know which guard is going to get angry with you. You know who not to piss off. It’s easy because it’s known. I left a world that I knew very well, but I was almost exhausted by how well I knew it. I have great family back in England. I sound as if I have left and will never go back. I do go back. I left a world that is very comfortable. You know it well, but it is not the best world for you. Change is exciting. You don’t have history and there is promise in that."

Why now? How did you know this was the time?

"I always had in my head I would move here [Los Angeles]. I don’t even know now how it happened. It’s like how no one can really remember how they were born. I had an idea that I wanted to work more on good things in advertising. I had supportive and wonderful bosses in London. It was just time. I was leaving my apartment in Soho in London in June. I was meant to be there. I wrote a book there for 2.5 years but now I am out and I don’t feel sad about this at all. The same as when I left my office in London, I wasn’t sad. I didn’t say goodbye to anyone. I had lunch with my bosses and then just crept out."

"Everything just fell into place so beautifully. And of course, you are tired when you make a last cut. Suddenly you take off this baggage and you are like “God, that was so fucking heavy. I need to lie down for a few weeks.” That’s probably what I did. I was burnt out for a few weeks. I was living in this amazing castle for a few weeks and just recovered. You know, it’s like you have this set of circumstances around you and even though you are the one that flicks the first domino, it all starts to unfold and it gathers force. There comes a point where as a lucid being, you realize, “My survival depends on this. I just have to get out."

As you are now moving forward with this new life, what keeps you connected to what brought you here?

"It’s just I don’t think there is any choice. I am really into my creativity, the people I know who are creative and I am just into pushing this as far as I can take it and fucking with shit. That’s what I want to do. I just want to fuck with some stuff and that’s what keeps me going. I love my planet and I love nature and I love animals and I really want to help them out. I don’t have any solutions but I know how to communicate a solution. If I can use everything that I’ve got, that I’ve used to sell questionable things...like if I can sell something good, then that would be amazing. Disclaimer…not that I am saying beer is bad, but you know. I am saying, “Man, I am on your side!” If you have creativity, you just gotta do it. I think everybody has it, but you just have to push it and that’s the course." 

Was it worth it?

"Oh God. Yeah. It really was. And again this is just the beginning of this journey and who knows what will happen next. Not in a bad way, but we don’t know what is next. You don’t have to do anything extravagant to make a last cut. It is a choice about the life you want. It is about risk and nothing good exists without risk."

What do you believe in most that keeps you going?

"I am going to come across as the biggest hippy ever. I believe in creativity. Absolutely that is what I believe in and what I believe can fix the world. Creativity can shift consciousness. The power of connection. I live a very synchronistic life. It is very easy for me to connect with the people that I am supposed to be connected with. I feel---I have to be really careful so I don’t sound as if I live in Sedona---basically I believe that if I was a Jungian…I believe in synchronicity. It is not chance. It is synchronicity. It’s kind of like the ‘60’s but without the drugs and the misogyny. I believe in creativity and connectivity and I believe in matriarchy. I am not speaking of women who have existed in men’s worlds and tried to be like them and become worse. I believe in a matriarchy where even men can be in charge. It is a philosophy, a wisdom. You clear away the old and you don’t have that thing on you that maybe stopped someone from having a conversation with you, stopped that flow from happening and you are just at ease."

"I feel as if we have all come back to where we are supposed to be. Not to sound like a massive hippy, which I am, but we have about 10-15 years before the ultimate last cut, which is we lose our world. We are last cutting every day with the species that exist. Something like a 100 species a day are dying. Something so nuts. I do believe as well that everybody any kind of creative bone in their body needs to step up now because the world, in order to survive, needs to fundamentally last cut with the old paradigm of the last 100, last 2000 years.

We have to cut from all of these ideas that we have held, desire and an endless destination where we will be ok---though we will never arrive---we treat earth like this shit holding pen while we are waiting to arrive where we really want to get. “There” does not exist. It’s right here. That is the profound shift that needs to happen. I am interested in the big Last Cut. Me leaving my life behind is about my being, as much as I can, being in service to those ideas." 

Jacopo de Bertoldi

I have had a love affair with Italy since I was 12. I can remember the particular instant stuck in traffic along the Tiber River in Rome on a family trip when I determined my soul belonged there.  Since then, I have studied Italian language, have studied, worked and lived there and most importantly, have established lifelong friendships in Italy that provide sustenance, support and reflection in the constantly changing landscape of my life.  Nearly sixteen years ago, I met Jacopo de Bertoldi at his parents’ restaurant on their farm in Belluno, Italy. Ironically, I was going to school in Italy at the time and he was visiting home from Los Angeles, the city where I grew up and where he was working in film.  There was an instant and deep connection that we both recognized and have nurtured. In the years since meeting, our relationship has run through many phases from dating to friendship to familial, but regardless of what point on the spectrum we land, we continue to show up for each other and reflect back the beauty and inspiration we have always seen in one other.  My recent trip to Italy was so much about re-connecting with Jacopo and other dear friends who have traveled with me through so much of life. I allowed myself to be seen in this new iteration by those who have held me, loved me, supported me and cheered me on through many evolutions. It was such a pleasure to ask Jacopo, a filmmaker and fellow artist, these questions and to have a conversation about truth and reality and our desire to keep showing up for our art and for each other. Towards the end of our conversation, he turned the mic on me. 

What matters most to you?

Jacopo: "What is very important for me is the understanding of reality. We happen to be here. I happen to be here in this world, if I am here (he laughs), and I have to understand. Since I don’t believe in God. I mean I don’t believe in [one story of] the creation, perhaps there was a creation but who knows what it looked like. I don’t have a reference point. I don’t have deep-grounded roots, somewhere secure from where I can build up a sure reading of reality. So for me the understanding of reality is the most important thing. It is important to me to try to understand what is the world, who I am and who I am in relation with the world."

How does that tie into what you do and thread into your life?

"When the meaning of the world was becoming the main focus of my life, I started studying philosophy. But, philosophy for me was not enough to understand the world. Then I thought that possibly through art, you can understand the world better, because art does not pretend to give a full explanation of reality. So I thought maybe art can get closer to the truth---closer than philosophy probably and science. It can give you a closer idea, a more full idea of reality than science or philosophy. So I started painting, then writing and then I started studying the works of the big masters in film that I was fascinated by. Now, I think that movie making is not necessarily a way to know reality better, but it is a form of art and, as a form of art, it can give you a good hint of what reality is. 

But at the same time, what I want to say is that, when you look through the viewer of the camera, you do analyze reality. You are forced to analyze reality and to think about it. I like to do that, because I am personally forced to understand what I see in the viewer. When you walk around, there is more time. It flows so you have time to understand, look and process. When you look in the viewer, there you are watching something and you have to decide what is that thing and what does it mean in that moment. So it is a very important moment to understand what is reality in a basic manner." 

What do you do to stay connected and quiet the input that is everywhere?

"Today we are so connected that we are overwhelmed with input. It is rare to have time completely with yourself. You have to create it. The creative part of our thinking is reduced with the net. You don’t have dark spots, dark areas of your knowledge. In some ways you can only have surface knowledge unless you go deeper. In the past, if you didn’t know something, maybe it was difficult to get information about that matter so maybe you were forced to invent. Now it is different. You mentioned what happens inside of yourself and what happens outside so I started to think about how connected we are and how much information there is out there."

How do you feel that you find your creativity if you are constantly bombarded with the external input?

"In the past when we were not as hyper-connected, in order to understand reality, you had to fill those areas of your perception where you did not have information. In order to fill those areas, you might have to invent or make up something to fill that spot. Today, if you don’t know or can’t understand something, you just open the computer and go online and you have access to tons and tons of information. So you are not forced anymore to invent. I don’t know why, but I am thinking now about Don Quixote. I am imagining him in his library, reading all of these books. What he was reading was only novels and literature about medieval love and war. Then he goes out into the world and what he sees in the world is what he has been reading in his library. He imagines that the world is a reflection of what he read.  If he had had access to Internet, maybe we would not have had the beauty of his imagination and he would not have had a chance to see the world with fresh eyes if he had researched it all differently." 

I think film or a painting or anything else captures that moment that you are trying to reflect upon and hopefully it makes another person contemplate the reality you were trying to capture and highlight.

"When you watch a piece of art, you are seeing the reality as seen from the point of view of the artist. At this moment you understand immediately that the big masters, the big artists, are those that are able to give us a universal view of reality that anyone can share from any corner of the world." 

Let’s tie that back to Don Quixote and the noise that exists in life that distracts us from honing into what we want to see and reflect.  There are so many external influences and a raining of imagery and sound and noise. How do you create the dark space, the quiet, the time to even know what it is that you want to show the world? How do you figure out as an artist what you want to share with the world?

"Of course, you have inputs and things that you like. There may be other artists that you admire and see their work. We are all influenced by others’ work, the news, social media, the sound of the cicada outside where we are on this farm, the tractor passing by. I don’t ask myself what to do. I just do. Who knows? Perhaps I am not the most convincing. I have been writing a lot of screenplays that have been very hard to get produced. I am writing things that are not very commercial, perhaps too independent or different or particular from the mainstream. For instance, the film that I am working on now has been very hard to produce. Finally I am getting to the end, but it has been very hard to get people to understand the idea." 

As someone who is directing and making movies and trying to express an idea, how do you stay true to that vision?

"There is not an end to what we do not know about the world. So we are constantly asking the questions to fill in the dark areas. If you see it that way, you must act as an artist. You understand that the world is such an unknown thing and it is impossible to not act as an artist. We are all artists. In history, this sharing of viewpoints is crucial. If you are able to maintain your childlike vision of the world, you keep asking".

We all have things that we believe in that determine how we live. Sometimes we come up against moments that require us to ask, cut, shift to live more deeply what we believe in.  There are the last cuts. So what was a significant last cut that you made that brought you closer to this?

"I am so much attached to what I believe in, which is understanding the world, that I have made so many sacrifices in my life to follow this belief. I do last cuts constantly. I left the comforts of a life with a normal job. Even emotionally, I have left behind people I care about [to follow this passion]. I remember very well when the woman I was working for, who is an incredible artist, Carla Accardi, was telling me about her life. She told me that, when she was a young girl in Sicily, she was so in love with this man. They were both madly in love with each other, but she said to herself, “If I stay with this man, I am not going to be an artist. I will lose my drive, my focus.” So she left Sicily and left him to go to Florence and then Rome to become the artist that she became. And then, when she was older, in her 70’s or later, she met this man again and they saw each other for ten years until he died. They were again in love. She would take the train from Rome to Milan at 75 or so to visit this man. It is a beautiful story. If you truly believe in something that is your focus, your motivation, you prioritize that in your life." 

Is it always easy to live that way?

"No. Not at all. Not at all."

Is it worth it?

"Yes. I went through very difficult times—my screenplays were refused--- or problems--- two movies that were up to the production date and then fell. When you do stuff that is not commercial, it can be very difficult, but I am happy because I believe in it. I can do it.

I never made a decision that strongly changed my life completely. I always followed my instinct. If I made big decisions in my life, I didn’t feel as if they were a turning point. I always follow my instinct and so everything was adjusting after that in a very instinctive way. Big changes in my life have come from outside and forced me to make decisions from that point. They forced me to act or react, but I always feel as if I have chosen the best thing for me in the moment.

Human beings have a survival instinct usually. Of course, we might be wrong when we make a decision, but it is usually the best thing in that moment. I think I am a very instinctive person. You can make a decision rationally or you can make a decision from your intuition. I am more of an intuitive person than a rational person. I always follow my intuition and when you do that, you are fine. Yes everything can go wrong, but it depends on how you perceive it too." 

{At this point, Jacopo turned the questioning upon me. From this point forward, the bold questions are directed from him and the responses are mine.}

I think you are a very intuitive person too. So, I don’t understand after you have made a decision, why you say that something went wrong. Do you regret a decision that you have made in your life? 

"No, I do not have any regrets, but what I have learned more in the last couple years is that [in the past] I layered on so many external factors to my decision making process that I was not solely operating from my pure intuition or my own knowing of what was best for me in any given moment.  Often I allowed external factors to influence my decision-making. That is where there is some regret though I don’t have any one regret, because every single moment leads us to this one. So if I had not made every single decision I made, I would not be here. And perhaps underlying there is some instinct or intuition even in the ones that seem “wrong,” because we learn from them. So perhaps we were meant to go down a path even if after we say, “Why the fuck did that just happen?” as it leads us to something better."

What is your biggest regret? You said you did not have one, but I will ask.

"I think my biggest regret in general was not standing up for myself, not speaking up for what I knew to be true for a very long time, not being my own advocate."

And now you are following that process of finding the space for yourself and protecting yourself?

"I don’t even know if is a matter of protecting myself. I think I have gotten to a place of better knowing myself and knowing what I need to feel well and happy and more confident in my ability to express myself and my worthiness to have an opinion and stand up for what I need. In the past, be it from guilt or not feeling worthy, I deferred to others."

What do you dream for yourself? What is the best picture you can see of yourself projected in the future? It’s a difficult question. 

"I think my biggest dream is to love and be loved and see and be seen and to connect and to do all of that openly and honestly and truthfully so that I can be who I know I am here to be and not to hold back. My whole dream is to believe in myself enough to keep growing and communicating what I believe I am here to do."

What do you need to be happy?

"Freedom. Truth. Love. Some vegetables and some good olive oil." 

I agree with that.

{And for the final question, I turned the mic back on Jacopo.}

What is your biggest dream?

"My biggest dream is to be able to make this film I am doing now in the best possible way and then the next one and the next one and the next one." {Check out Jacopo's current film project, This is Not Cricket, for an insightful look at immigration and assimilation through the lens of a cricket team in Italy.}

Samantha Paige

S01.1: What is a Last Cut? 

In the introductory Last Cut Conversations episode, Last Cut creator, artist Samantha Paige, tells her personal story and discusses how the Last Cut project was born. Samantha talks vulnerably and candidly about her cancer diagnosis at age 21 and the debilitating effects of unaddressed trauma, anxiety and depression over the following decades. After years of suffering from PTSD and undergoing additional major surgeries, Samantha finally began to ask herself some powerful questions that led to greater freedom, wellness and peace within and around her body. 

Last Cut is a photo-documentary and book project about those big life decisions {last cuts} made to bring us closer to living truth and more freedom. The project was born in January 2016, when Samantha opted to remove silicone implants she had elected 8 years ago when she had a preventive double mastectomy. Her explant surgery became the metaphor for the many ways in which we are faced with choices that ask us to address big questions within ourselves, commit to our truth and own our scars. Her explant inspired the launch of the Last Cut project with photographer Lisa Field with the intention to capture these moments of truth and bold ownership of self.  The basis of the Last Cut way of living is asking questions, such as “What is most true to you?” and “How are you living it?” These questions provide the foundation for the Last Cut Conversations. 

Samantha is currently finishing her memoir, Last Cut, and working with Lisa Field on the Last Cut photo-documentary and Last Cut Conversations, where bold individuals are interviewed and photographed.

Commit to Something: Behind the Scenes

Samantha Paige and Last Cut Photographer Lisa Field discuss the lead up to Samantha’s participation in Equinox’s 2017 Commit to Something campaign. Equinox’s message around commitment and how our commitments shows who we truly are, parallels the underlying themes of Last Cut in unbelievable fashion. Equinox Creative Director Elizabeth Nolan speaks with Samantha about the power of commitment in life, not only the gym, and how Equinox chose Samantha for this image. Samantha’s provocative image from the campaign conveys her empowered embodiment, which landed and evolved powerfully this year through her explant surgery and Last Cut. 

Emily Mackenzie

In May, I read a news story about a high profile documentary on a woman in her post-breast cancer journey. I reached out to both the survivor and the filmmaker, but in the end, connected profoundly with the filmmaker, Emily Mackenzie, around the complex breast cancer and reconstruction conversation. Oddly enough, Emily grew up in Santa Barbara just blocks from where I currently live. I asked her to meet up to discuss her documentary, “Scar Story,” the next time she came to town. Unbeknownst to me at that time, it turned out that Emily was in the middle of a significant last cut moment in her life, as the film she had set out to make needed to go back to the drawing board for reasons she couldn’t have predicted. When we met at her childhood home during Fiesta weekend in August, Emily shared a series of last cuts she has made in recent years to bring her life more in line with her true passion for documentary making. She also reflected on how growing up in a small town with a sister with severe cerebral palsy has shaped her perspective on life. She welcomed us into her home and showed us her secret “weeping wall” where she would go as a child to reflect. Even though she has no direct personal history with breast cancer, Emily has taken on the many layers of the disease with passion, empathy and a strong feminist lens. I loved our banter on the nuances of reconstruction and the feminine identity, and have no doubt her documentary will be as bright and inquisitive as she is.

Do you want to start by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

"I'm Emily McKenzie. I am from Santa Barbara, where we are sitting right now, but I live in New Orleans, Louisiana. I'm a producer, amongst other things, of non-fiction work--documentaries, etc." 

What are you working on now?

"It is a saga how it has evolved, but right now I am working on a documentary about breast cancer. More specifically, what I am interested in is the fact there is a strange representation of breast cancer. The pink thing. The pink washing issues. You know all about this."

But it is great to hear this, because I haven't really talked about any of this yet [on Last Cut].

"No?"

No, I haven't. I've enjoyed reading what you've written because it is something that I feel.

"Yeah. Well, I think there are so many things that I think are problematic. I get on a war tirade about it. All of this strange pink imagery and capitalizing on women's bodies, women's bodies that are sick, with yogurt tops that are pink and the NFL wearing pink sneakers while they are playing so that everybody thinks they are friendly towards women. That's a bunch of bullshit. What's really scary and sad to me is that the rate of breast cancer diagnoses is higher than it ever has been. One in eight women will have it."

That's insane.

"In the 20's, it was around one in twenty women. Now, one in three women will die from it, which is the same mortality rate as it was in the 1970's. So all of this campaigning, all of the "awareness," it's bullshit. It is not helping anybody, and it is patronizing. It's all wrapped into these issues of women. It's really bullshit. Sorry, I keep swearing. I get so mad."

That's ok! We swear too. 

"So for me, I guess, what really interested me is the politics around reconstruction and what you do with your body. Body politics is a thing. What is that famous piece of art? The photo with the words, "My body is a battleground." That photo, when you are talking about women's bodies, says that everyone is allowed to have an opinion. What they should and shouldn't do with them. How they are supposed to look. What's going on? So breast cancer becomes this interesting intersection to talk about feminism to me. Body policing. How does this work? What is expected of us? I got super fascinated with the question of reconstruction and why people do it and don't do it. What I learned last week from [another woman who had a mastectomy's] surgeon is that 58% of women don't have reconstruction or ultimately end up without having reconstruction, so maybe they went through it and their bodies did not react well. So the majority, by a slim margin, but still the majority of women who had mastectomies or lumpectomies or whatever, doesn’t rebuild, which I didn't know. That stuns me. So that means there are women walking around maybe wearing prosthetics, or they are just invisible to us."

That's interesting to me because when I made this decision, I did have a good friend of mine in LA tell me about someone who had done the same. People came forward. They just don't walk around with nothing, they put in the chicken cutlets or whatever they call them.

"The foobs."

Yes. We call mine the noobs. No boobs.

"That's great."

Unfortunately, during my recovery, one side was collecting some fluid and I had to go down to LA and get that drained. So, at that point, it was called the woob because it was wobbly. [laughs] Once, everything was healed up, then it was the noobs. [more laughter]

"I think it is so offensive too, because of the pink. If there's a taking away of a part that is identified as feminine, then let's attach a color to it that is thought to make you feel girly.

If you are already having a crisis where you have to encounter your own mortality, you have to go through being sick, go through chemo and radiation and be sick for a long time. It's terrible, and then to have this thing thrown in your face "just to remind you what being a woman is." "Just don't forget." It's like, “Please can I just have some privacy to consider my own life and manage these other things that are significantly more important than your understanding that I am still a female in this world, or whatever this is?” It's strange. I just think it is very strange.

But, I've just been meeting so many rad ladies who opted out of reconstruction or had it and their bodies rejected it, like your story. It's been really cool. It's been very interesting. I admire them so much. Cancer for a lot of women happens so fast. You are diagnosed on a Friday, and one week later you are having surgery. There is no time to sit around and consider, “What do I want to do with my body? How is this all going to work?”"

It just happens.

"Yeah. So I feel kind of grateful if ever I have breast cancer [knocks on the table] that I have thought about these issues. What will I do? Will I have reconstruction? Will I not have reconstruction? What does that look like? Ok. Cool. I'm glad that that decision I [would now] understand."

Well, I think it is interesting too. I certainly don't recall anyone saying, "Do more reading about what we are about to put in your body, or here is what they are actually made of." I feel as though it's just this blanket, "Oh, these used to be really toxic but now they've redone them after being removed from the market," which is not the whole truth. "Why would we put them in so many women if they weren't safe?" That's right up there with the pink. It's this assumption that it shouldn't matter because it is going to get you physically looking a certain way, like a woman, and that should override anything else. I was not told at all what I was getting into. I had thyroid cancer when I was 21 and tested positive for the BRCA1 gene. My mom had breast cancer in her early thirties.  There are links between thyroid and breast cancer. I had my daughter in 2007 and, by the time she was six or seven months old, I was fed up with having to go every three months to have an MRI. It was the broken record of "It's time to go get tested again." I had just spent a good part of my twenties dealing with panic attacks and migraines because I don't think I every properly dealt with having cancer my senior year of college. Emotionally, it all just started to explode in my face.

So I started to ask the questions [about mastectomy]. The conversation with my doctor and those close to me at the time was "Well, don't you want to look normal?" "Don't you want your daughter to look at you in the shower and identify with you in that way?" And so on and so forth. Looking back, I take full responsibility. I asked the questions. I knew some people use some of their own fat for reconstruction. I asked about that but was told I didn't have enough body fat to use, that I'd look like a shark bit me in the leg. So I was told that implants were the best option and that they'd feel the most real, and that, if we are going to make our list of the fallacies, that is bullshit. For me at least, I am super thin on top and I felt as if I had two boulders in my chest. I never could sleep well. The list of things that didn't feel right was huge. So I am fascinated by what you are doing from that perspective too. I think we are sold short in that decision process in not getting full information. Even when you Google for the ingredient list of implants, you cannot find them until you dig deep into the FDA's report.

"Which is nuts."

It is nuts! I'm really sensitive. After having cancer and migraines and everything else, I have to treat my body like a machine and there's not a lot of wiggle room. I would have half a glass of wine and the next two days are kind of ruined for me. It's gotten better since I've had my implants out; I think my implants actually made me allergic to alcohol. Now I don't feel sick, but can still notice the difference. So then, having all those chemicals in my body…

"Leaching into your system..."

Yes.  There are so many breaks in the logic about how the whole system is operating. I haven't used Last Cut as a platform for that because it is not exactly what I am trying to talk about, but it is obviously a fundamental part of my story as well. So, I think it is great what you are doing because it is a topic of great importance and I think it needs to be highlighted and looked at from many angles. So thank you.

"Yes. Absolutely. It is really, really important. It is a feminist issue. If this is how my sisters are being treated, it is all part of the same standards that make my life hell, too."

Right.

"It's all one and the same. It is all symptomatic of the deeper sickness."

It is interesting, too, the film you were trying to make and your experience of reworking it into what feels like a better fit and the racial politics, the feminist politics, the election. You couldn't have your finger on more of the pulse in terms of what people are anxious and fearful to try and figure out and push change.

"Yes. My aunt had breast cancer, but that was before I was born. It is an interesting thing. Now I'm off in this world. It has me wondering what the fates are going to deliver next, without getting too woo woo about it."

I almost think it is better to have the fact that you aren't personally in this moment in time so rocked [by the subject]. In a bigger sense, it gives you a very rational, unbiased voice and obviously the ability through your profession as a producer and a documentary, nonfiction filmmaker to connect with people. So you have these two things that I think brings life and a voice to a subject that often is deflected to women as being one that is emotional. I have had these things said to me repeatedly, “Maybe you are just sensitive,” and maybe I am.

Yes, but what is wrong with that.

Right. Right.

"It is a gift to be sensitive."

Yes, it seems to be me that there are a lot of other women who are sensitive too. I believe it is our right to have full information about what we are putting into our bodies. I think that having been brought to the subject matter from a bit of a distance is a huge strength as you navigate the next iteration of this film.

"I have millions of questions to ask people so with everyone that I speak to, I say, “Tell me your story.” I then follow up and ask for more when I do not understand. If it were two insiders talking about the subject [of breast cancer or implants], there would be a lot of short hand, but with this, I don’t know anything so I have to keep asking questions. So that’s good because when I turn around to make the film, my explanation will be more comprehensive and will be for people like me, lay people who do not have an actual, personal relationship [to the subject matter]. It is very funny, strange and weird, as I am suddenly the “breast cancer person” in my friend group. They are all wondering, “Why are you? What’s going on here?” I don’t know. It is curious, very curious."

Curious and incredible.

"Yes, I wish that there were more visibility for the Flattopper or the flat look. I am stunned by how infrequently you see it. Once you visually have eyes on that, you get used to it so quickly. I was with Emily and this gal, Kai, filming them in the woods, and they took their shirts off because it was a really hot day. It didn’t even phase me, but then I saw people coming towards us and they were just gawking. “What is that?” It took me five minutes to get used to their look, and if we saw it more, no one would care. It does not have to be so stunning."

No one blinks when a man takes his shirt off. It is the same with breastfeeding in public being sexualized. That is where, again, I believe the way you are coming at this is a way to enter into a discussion around a much deeper, bigger problem in the way that our society is telling women how to manage their bodies.

"I am still in the phase of talking with people and trying to figure out how to put this all together in a film. I could show women moving through their daily lives, because the visibility factor should shift perspective too." 

In my final appointment with my doctor, he asked about my interest in getting nipples tattooed.  He explained that children tend to identify with the nipple as a marker of normalcy, more so than the size of the breast. It came up with my daughter and she said to me, that nipple or not, to her, “I am just mama.” In my experience, all of the build up around what would be normal actually felt the opposite in my body. I put on blinders and did not fully allow myself to focus on that part of my body and how alien it felt. I am very excited to see what comes of this film. It is a needed message from many angles. There are so many layers to it.

"A lot of people that I have spoken to have said that their surgeon won’t even do a mastectomy operation unless you have had a consult with a plastic surgeon. If you don’t want to see a plastic surgeon, they think something is wrong with you. I met one woman who had to change surgeons because her surgeon refused to operate on her unless she saw a plastic surgeon first to make sure she was of sound mind."

Lisa: That is the same as the requirement to see a minister before having an abortion.

"Exactly. It is the same thing. It is bananas."

My doctor asked me over and over again, “Are you sure you want to remove your implants?” He said that he has had women, who have asked for implants to be removed because they felt they were making them sick, get them taken out and then want to start again with the reconstruction process a week later because they do not like how they look. I reassured him that I was really clear after 8 years.

"I had a friend who was diagnosed at 24 years old with an extremely aggressive and fast moving form of breast cancer. She describes sitting in the doctor’s office weeping after they told her she was going to have to have a double mastectomy. She was weeping, freaked out and was sobbing to her mom, because she was wondering if she was going to die. The nurse squatted down next to her and said, “Don’t worry, honey. We will give you new ones that are bigger and perkier than before,” as if the reason she was weeping was the fear of losing her breasts. She was afraid of death and treatment. She was afraid all of it. She was afraid of cancer and what that was going to do to her life, and those were the words of comfort from the nurse. Fuck you."

Well, I think I comforted myself for the last 8 years. I was told that line too. “Oh, I don’t need to wear a bra. Lucky me. My boobs are so perky and will be when I am 90, if I am still alive after having this toxic shit in my body.” I personally shut down around it for all those years, because there was a long list of last cuts that I needed to make before I was ready to even see that one. At the time, I was going through my double mastectomy, I don’t think I had the ability to ask myself to be honest enough to make the right decisions or stand up for what I knew to be right for me.

"If there is a pre-determined order of what most people do, often it is easier to jump on the assembly line and do what you are supposed to do. This is how it goes. Ok, fine. That is the problem. We need to hold the phone and explain the different options to people and what those options mean."

Yes, it is also important to allow women to take the time [when possible] to check in and feel in their body, in their gut, what is the right thing for them to do as an individual versus being told what is best for them, and to empower them to stand up for that choice. There are so many times when we know what is right, but aren’t able to act because we don’t have the support or it goes against other places in our lives where it would completely rock the boat. It can be ugly.

Lisa: Yes, it can also be cost prohibitive or incredibly scary. You were terrified the first time you were going to see your surgeon about this. You were afraid that he might just say “no” [regarding the explant surgery], as if he has the power to say “no.” He was so skilled and he was the person who had made everything look so great. You were some of his best work.

Yes, I had that fear that he may just say “no,” and then wondered if I would have to start over and find someone else who would actually do this. I was lucky enough too that I was able to afford the remainder after insurance paid for some of the surgery. Insurance didn’t pay for all it. The link between implants and illness isn’t clearly proven, even though so many women are having symptoms. It was not an insignificant amount of money that I had to pay at the end of the day.

"Imagine if you couldn’t afford that?"

Right, I read on many chat rooms and other places I was reading [about implants the week I was considering my explant], many women, who are sick, do not have the luxury to go and do this surgery. What it comes back to is owing every woman, every human being, the right to know what they are getting into in the beginning of this process.

"Yes, not to mention the time to heal…what if you didn’t have a job that allowed you the time to heal?"

Yes. So, tell me about a significant last cut you have made?

"Well, when I chose to leave being on the road with this person [about whom she was making a documentary], that was definitely a monumental decision, but I don’t know the ramifications of yet. I am still in the post, sorting it out phase. Sometimes I think, “Oh, this is great. You are just letting the Universe take you or you are following what you are meant to follow and being more truthful.” Sometimes, I think, “Oh shit. Did I make the right choice?” I am still in the back and forth crisis. It is not even regretting that I made the right choice, but feeling the regret and sadness that it didn’t work. The thinking of “Well, that would have been so amazing!” still comes across pretty frequently."

Would you have been in integrity with yourself if you had stayed?

"No."

That’s what it comes down to in the end. I think that is what it comes down to in the end with any of these big decisions. First and foremost, if we are living a truthful life, we want to be able to look ourselves in the mirror. I don’t think that any of these decisions come without sadness and loss, because even in a break-up, a divorce, a surgery, an internal shift-all of it, there always are pros and cons. That is exactly the crux of it.  Even knowing that you might be letting go of something that could have been, in its ideal form, optimal and fantastic, [you then look at] where did the scales tip? That is exactly what I am trying to highlight here with this project. It isn’t easy. A lot of people would have stayed out on the road, because that is what they said in public they were going to do. Then, the soul gets sold off a bit, and the integrity of who you are gets compromised. So yes it remains to be seen, but it is a breakup. Breakups are sad even when they are healthy.

"Yes. That is what it has felt like emotionally. The only emotional kin to this whole experience with this film is a break-up or a death. I realized, “Now I have to call everybody and announce that this has changed” or return to things socially when people then ask why I am not out on the road and how my film is coming along."

Yes, we get forced to own our truth and say it over and over again. You are constantly put to the test to stand behind the decision you made and your values and beliefs.

"At first, I was asking, “If I were a different person, could I have made this work? If I were smarter or better, could I have made this work?” I kept thinking, “If only I had pushed a bit harder…” One thing though that is nice is that, with time, it has become much clearer that no one would have been able to make that work. There were so many things that came to light in reflecting on the principle relationship at the heart of the film and what I had learned in the months leading up to filming. I feel more and more certain that no one could have made this work. This is not my bad. I did not fail this. This was an impossible situation, and thank goodness I figured it out. It took some months, but thank goodness I figured it out and got away from it. Now I can begin the healing and the next thing."

Yes, now you can put your talent towards something where you can make change in the world in a healthy way for yourself. I have run myself into the ground before, literally having a nervous breakdown, trying harder and pushing harder. I think most have in some way. To what end if you tried harder at the cost of your well-being? What if you had made that film, but you got sick because you had completely stuffed down what you felt to be true to you? In my experience it has always been this way.

"My sister Elizabeth lives in that room over there. She has cerebral palsy and needs constant care. So that is the coming and going you are seeing. That is a whole other thing I considered talking about. My sister got very sick this past Spring while I was in the middle of pre-production. It is a developmental disorder that you are born with, and it further develops over time. With her, she is profoundly disabled. Since I was in high school, I always knew that her life expectancy was around 25 years old. I always knew that she was going to die when I was in college. So there was always this intense relationship around her early demise. She just turned 35. This Spring I was coming to Southern California to do a shoot for an entirely different film, and my mother had called the week before to say, “You might want to change your plane ticket and come early because Liz isn’t doing so well.” So I called my brother and he said, “No, you need to come immediately. Liz is going to die.” So I got out here and, as I was driving up from LAX, my mom called and said, “We just talked to the pulmonologist (who has been with her since she was a little kid) and he said that she has pneumonia and everyone needs to say their goodbyes.” That is how people go. We spent a month in the hospital. It was terrible. Then we took her home for hospice because they said she had days or weeks. So I just decided to stick around. As soon as we brought her home, she opened her eyes and smiled. We had not seen her make a facial expression in weeks. It is so nuts. I call her The Nine Lives. She is like a cat. She has had these brushes with death before. My relationship to it is so fucking confounding. How do I deal with this? That [whole experience] was out of my control, but it was a hugely impactful experience in recent time. I came home for this and then she didn’t die. I had to re-orient and head out to make the movie."  

Has this all brought you together as a family?

"Yes, we are a very bonded pack of people."

How did you end up in New Orleans?

"I was living in New York, but I hated winter. Growing up here made it hard. Fall is great, but then the novelty runs off. In fact, I thought perhaps this is my last cut. I lived in New York for a while and was trying to make documentaries, but was working in TV. I kept getting promoted, which was great, but I hated the stuff we were producing. I would think to myself, “This is garbage. I am good at this, but I don’t like it. I am getting promoted and New York is one of the most expensive places in the world. This is a career. It’s great. I should do it.” But then I went through one really bad winter. You know how normally you defrost and come alive in Spring? I did not defrost until the end of August, when it started to turn into Fall again. I thought, “This is unacceptable. I can’t do this. It is too hard for me. I don’t like this town. I don’t like this work.” What I kept hoping in New York was to master it somehow. I kept hoping to balance it so then I could leave."

Yes, it’s the same thing as “If I try harder” or “If I hold out long enough…”

"I tried that for a few years and it did not work. So then on the first snowy day, we packed up a U-Haul and just drove to New Orleans. We went there, because we have friends, a cousin who lives there and there is a production world there. If I want to keep doing production work, it’s NY, LA, Austin or New Orleans. I like New Orleans a lot. It has been a year and a half. We are still getting to know each other."

I think essentially what you are saying through the way you analyzed the question [What was your most recent last cut?] is that we are doing this all the time. So this was significant. Other choices are significant. Even smaller choices in your day are significant. They are happening all the time. If you are living a life where you are trying to be awake.

What were the challenging parts of the decision related to the documentary?

"I actually think part of the NY story is connected, because I always knew I wanted to work with documentaries. It was something that I really liked but I couldn’t sustain it in NY. It was too expensive. So I needed to work in television to actually afford life. So leaving NY was about the decision to leave but it was about, “Go on, girl. Go make your feature film. Get out of NY and give yourself a few years to see what falls into your lap.” Then I met Sasha, the producer, and she is the person who found the woman that we were going to make the documentary about. So I pinned all the hopes, dreams and expectations to this project, and it was working. It was all coming together. I thought, “I made the right choice to leave NY. Now I am getting my time. It is going to pay off. I am going to reap the benefit of giving myself this new freedom and space.” I had mapped out the next two years.  “Ok, here is how the edits are going to work. I am going to submit to these festivals. Then, I am going to do this and this.” I had mapped out the next couple of years and pinned all of my dreams and ambitions. It is exhausting. It’s this space where, “Oh my God, I don’t want to be a filmmaker.” I don’t want to, but I want to. I sometimes will think, “Ok, fine. I quit,” but then immediately say, “Never, I love it!” It is a difficult life. It is a difficult pursuit. It is so inconsistent. It is so crazy. It is so volatile. I had pinned all of these ego ambitions, life ambitions, [onto the belief that] this was going to be the next thing that I did that took me to the next spot so I could really [believe that walking away from everything in NY was worth it]. 

So to have it all fall apart so dramatically and tremendously, the ego conversation was the worst. I was pinning my ambitions to this. I did think this was going to be something that helped me figure out my career and really make that turn official in my professional life. I worked on so many things as a producer and I don’t particularly want to be a producer. I would much rather be the person directing something. I am better at that, but those jobs are harder [to find]. So this was great because I was going to direct something. I am going to step away from this world where I have to be the producer for everyone, which is essentially like being a glorified babysitter because you are just wrangling and taking care of everyone. I don’t want to do that. I am good at that and I’ll happily do that for a nice payday, but it’s not what I want. I had pinned all of those hopes on the [recent documentary] project. It was going to be the thing that took me to my next spot, and I was so excited about it too. I spent all this time studying Renaissance religious art so we could mimic that with the imagery with her as a martyr. There was so much thought and attention put into it for months and months and months and to lose all of that was a bummer. It was really depressing and sad for me. It felt like a death. I really lost something or someone. 

The hard part was contending with the ego stuff. Well, am I bad to have had an ego about this? Am I bad to have said, “This is going to make my career go somewhere” and then to feel uncomfortable with that space where, “You thought this was going to make you an important person. You thought that was what was going to do for you and know you are sad?” When you have to actually be with your ego, it is very uncomfortable. I am kind of feeling, not guilty, but embarrassed that I really thought that was going to happen. Yet, that’s ok.  The hardest part was the whole conversation with myself that I thought this was going to be a career breaker. I don’t anymore. This new project is fascinating- the subject and the questions, but the last one was a home run. It could have been a grand slam, because it is incredible. Yet it is incredible because it is not real. I am still contending a little bit with the disappointment. “You are going to have to keep working hard. You are going to have to keep doing this. Sorry, you are not out of the struggle space.” I also know that I never will be. Even if I had made that film and it had been a grand success, it will keep being a struggle. 

This last week I was in Seattle and Portland to meet a bunch of women and try and figure out whose story to tell. The pretense was that I am so interested in all of these issues around identity and body politics and all of that but there is the bigger picture of breast cancer, which is such a broad thing. There are so many different stories within it and so many different ways of representing it. We have failed at that. There is not good, diverse representation of what breast cancer looks like, feels like, what the experience is at all. So who are the other communities that are not being shown? The Mets community, which is the Stage 4 metastatic community, is a whole world of people. So I was meeting with some of those women and they are really amazing and interesting. Maybe it should be about the Mets community? It could be about all these different groups. So, I am just trying to get a grip on all the worlds of people [under the bigger umbrella of breast cancer], and also say, “What is interesting to me? What I am going to learn by doing this?” It is important to work through you own emotional stuff through your art. What do I want to work through? Whose story can I resonate with and really dig into?"

Well, the Mets topic is very interesting with what you have experienced with your sister in terms of the parallels there.

"Yes, knowing there is an expiration date."

Yes and how you choose to live it.  That parallel is huge. How do you choose to live that time that you have and what do you want to teach people? The right topic will pop.

"Yes, I will keep reading and researching. It will come." 

What is most true to you?

"I don’t know. I was fussing over that one. In case you can’t tell, I am a little bit neurotic. This was when I was trying to get my mother to answer for me. She said, “Being a good person.” Come on."

What do you believe in that keeps you focused when you are making these decisions? When you are making these decisions, what are your reference points within yourself?"

"We spoke a little bit about my sister. I am not a religious person at all. No religion. But when I am making life choices or trying to figure out how to live well or be good or take care of myself, often my sister is a reference point. Since we were little kids, her limitations have always been a reference. I used to get really sad that she couldn’t do things I could do, but my mom’s advice was always, “Go do it harder and better. Go have extra fun and tell her about it.” It made me realize, “Oh yeah, that’s true. So go dance so hard at a party that you pull a muscle in your leg because you are crazy. Go have extra of whatever it is.” I think about her a lot when I am trying to make a big choice. She is a reference point. So, as a result, I can be a little more impulsive or risky. Maybe risky is a better word. I will make bolder decisions, because there is a reference point of someone who doesn’t have the option to just go out and do whatever the hell she wants, and I can so I should. I think about that a lot.

With her too, [she affects] the way that I think about interacting with people and wanting to know people in the world and, if there is a moral code that I live by, it is about respecting people and trying to understand who they are and honor who they are and give them lots of respect no matter who they are. Everyone deserves that patience and kindness. Growing up here in Montecito, where many people have a lot and often think they are really important, was tough. Everyone knew me as the girl in the wheelchair’s sister. A lot of pity was heaped on us. So, I have never liked that about Montecito or Santa Barbara, but I feel as if it was a really great incubator for this idea that you can meet people where they are and you can respect anybody. That was fun. I like being plopped down into situations where I clearly don’t fit in. How do I get to know someone? How can I make friends with this insane guy at the bus stop just for 10 minutes and see him for who he is and let him know that I see him? If you can cut through the bullshit and connect with people, it feels like a profound victory."

My daughter is 9. So one of the things I am constantly doing is reflecting on what I wish I had known when I was that age. What do you wish you would have know at that age or what do you wish someone would have told you?

"This is a tangent, but I promise it will lead me to answer. Since sixth grade we had to start keeping journals. I was obsessed with that and loved it. I kept a very active diary for many, many years. I have fallen off in the last couple years, but I always had this idea of having a conversation between younger me and older me. So I would be writing in a diary, “Older me is going to someday learn this…” Looking back at it and reading some of this stuff, like my really sad 17-year old self when I was going through a phase over some boy or whatever it was, I wish I was just there to give her a big hug and tell her it is going to be fine. I love the time travel thing with the diary.

When I am trying to make a big choice in my life or figure out how to be, I will say, “What would 17-year old me think of this? Would she think it is cool? Would she think it is boring?” That was the most idealistic me. I very much became who I am around 17, but was also super dreamy and completely naïve. So, what would 17-year old me think of my life right now? Would she think I am a sell-out? Yeah? Then, we have to leave NY right now.

The world was so much smaller when I was 9. My frame of reference was so much smaller so I think there was more judgment or negativity that I heaped on myself. I wish I had had a broader reference point to take away or negate the self-criticism. I was definitely, always have been, hard on myself, even as a little kid. I wish I had been told to lighten up a little bit. Don’t worry. This too shall pass. I wish I had been given a better sense of humor at a younger age too to handle the insane stuff that life brings. That [sense of humor] develops much later but if I had had that knowledge that it is all absurd anyway and you might as well try to enjoy yourself, it saves a lot of heartache and feeling insecure. I wish I had had the consciousness of a 30-year old as a 9-year old and had been told, “Now have fun!” That is what adults always told us, “Enjoy these years.” Youth is wasted on the young."

Vonn Jensen

Vonn Jensen (formerly Emily Jensen) is a US-based cancer advocate and vanguard approaching advocacy through the lens of social justice. They founded the movements,  Flattopper® Pride and Queer Cancer, and work specifically with populations often disenfranchised or rendered invisible in the dominant breast cancer narrative. Using a variety of media, they have worked for visibility as a means of combating the marginalization that certain groups, such as the queer community, face during treatment. 

The week before my explant surgery, I found Vonn's Flattopper Pride feed on Instagram. I felt instant relief, as I saw another person feeling at home in their body with no reconstruction after a double mastectomy. Vonn's willingness to share photos as well as their dedication to normalizing this body type provided an incredible amount of encouragement and community as I stepped into this new version of myself. Vonn has been a constant reference point and solid support over this past year and, finally after meeting in person in Portland, Oregon, no doubt now a dear friend.

SAM: So, before we start, I would love for you to introduce yourself and let everyone know who you are and what you are up to in the world.

VONN: "Who am I? I am a breast cancer patient, that’s the most obvious, so I will start with that. I was diagnosed a little over four years ago.  I was 31 at the time, so it was pretty shocking. At the time, I had a really great experience with my surgeon and my medical team. I came to realize that that was not the average kind of experience. My surgeon was a queer woman of color who was very active in social justice movements so she felt like a huge ally for me in a lot of ways, beyond just supporting me medically. It felt like we had this shared goal of trying to get me healthy. So when I said that I did not want reconstruction, she never batted an eye at that. I never considered it at all. There was never a question about it at all. I had a time where I questioned whether I would get rid of both breasts, and that took me a little while to wrap my head around and eventually she did recommend that I have a bilateral mastectomy. I think I needed that final push. I wanted that. I wanted to have symmetry, but it wasn’t really in line with my value system. You know, I always say Occam’s razor, but in the most obvious way. Do the least number of cuts, and if I don’t need to have more surgery, then why should I? So I am glad that she gave me that final nudge. I’m glad I did that. It was the better choice, for sure.

So, I went through this process and probably a year after I had surgery I started interacting with other people who had surgery who [had also not chosen reconstruction]. I coined the term Flattopper, so they were Flattoppers, and I realized that their experiences were really different than mine. Getting to a flat chest was so difficult for them. So, I came to understand the ways in which the Medical-Industrial complex is trying to assert these hegemonic beauty standards at the expense of their own health, or mental wellbeing, regardless of their desires. It just became this thing that I was really fired up about, and so I realized that I had to do something about it. 

So, at the same time, I had this idea that I was going to refuse to be ashamed of my body. I mean, I was, I had internalized a lot of negative thoughts about myself."

After your surgery?

"Yeah, I was afraid people would look at me and think that I was a monster. That was literally a word I had in my head and that I said to myself, which is so bizarre now. When I tell people this, they can’t believe me. I mean, I’ve been topless everywhere. I’m obviously very confident now, but it took me a while. But, I still thought I refused to hide myself away, as though I am ashamed, I refused to do that. I remember the first time I really was topless, in any big way, was actually at Seattle Pride, in the parade. I don’t even get involved in that kind of thing. I just felt like it was this opportunity and I needed to push myself. I had like half an inch of hair after chemo and so I walked down the street. I was just wearing silver spandex and suspenders and boots. That was it. It looked great. And, you know, a lot of things came out of that. A lot of people took my picture and it ended up being all over the internet. And it was so bizarre to me. But, everyone thought that I was trans and that’s why I had this flat chest. I had a relative who lives in Northern Washington and she was talking to her co-worker. Her co-worker was saying, “Oh yeah, I was at Seattle Pride, and I saw this trans person kissing a woman. Look at this,” and she showed her a picture of me. She had taken a picture of me and showed it. And, again, this person was like, I know them. Here’s a picture of us all together at Christmas. It was just really bizarre. I was really upset by it. I was upset that people were taking my image without permission and just sharing them all over. And also getting the story wrong."

Right, there was an assumption of what was behind it.

"Right. Like if I had been a trans person and had a trans top surgery, I would have a completely different chest. Also, there was this complete denial of what I had gone through. I had a disease. So, it took me a long time to unpack that. Mostly the concept of people stealing my pictures was really hard to deal with. But then, I’d gone back to school intentionally because I wanted to do activism work and writing work around this concept, around these ideas about gendered disease. I realized that what people were responding to was not what I was writing, but it was my images. So, I thought that I would intentionally put out images of myself but then have a website so you can come back and land on, and read what I have to say, and attach my fucking name to it. I mean, it is fine if you want to share these pictures, I realize that it is actually helping people, but I deserve to be named. I deserve to be treated as a person. It is almost like inspiration porn. People think they are doing something good by sharing this picture, but they are not. It is just mindless clicking and sharing. 

So, that was the whole idea behind it and it led to two years of very intense activism and traveling and never slowing down until right about now."

How did you feel through all of that? Physically? Were you feeling well when you are on that running journey?

"No, I wasn’t feel well at all."

Because it was close on the tails of your surgery. 

"You know, I didn’t start doing a lot of traveling until two years ago, and I definitely ran myself into the ground. Absolutely. I started to do more and more and then I felt this pressure. I didn’t even own a computer when I started, but I started this website and it wasn’t good at all. I put some pictures up and some stories and whatever, and people started to pay attention. Within four months of starting that, I was written up in forty-five countries of the world and so, I didn’t know how to deal with that at all. I didn’t really have a good support system in that. I felt this tremendous pressure to take every opportunity that I could. In my head, I thought phase one, year one, of this project that I am doing is going to be visibility, because you don’t see bodies like ours. That is damaging. That is a state of violence that is done to us. We don’t know our choices because we don’t see them. And if we do see them, we don’t see them in a positive light. So, I thought, visibility. I thought every opportunity I had to take. I thought every interview or every photo shoot. I was keeping myself on European time in case I needed to be there for an interview, or at least East Coast time. I needed to be up at all hours of the night to do these things. It was really bizarre, but I understand. I felt like if I didn’t keep the momentum going that it would stop. And I thought, I don’t know if my body is going to keep being able to do this, but I thought well, “You know what, if this is all I’ve done in the world, then I’ve left a legacy and it is enough.” Now I don’t feel good about that thinking. Now I look back and that feels fatalistic in a way. I just felt this tremendous pressure, and I couldn’t stop. It was like a mania, you know? 

For example, I had been in Europe one time, when I went through a few different countries and I had broken my toe and I had lost my voice and I had hardly slept. I was covered in mosquito bites. Italian mosquitos are phenomenally bad."

They are the worst.

"I was really allergic and I’m just swollen everywhere and I have no voice and a broken toe, but I came back into Seattle and there was someone visiting who I had met online. I wanted to meet them and do a photo shoot. So, I got in at night, went to a bar to meet them and got up super early to do a photo shoot. I did a photo shoot within 10 hours of being back in town after having traveled in Europe for like 20 days. That was the kind of pace I was keeping up. It was absurd."

Do you think it was more driven by the service to the project and what you wanted to show, and/or was there also a part of having come off this moment in time when your life was also in question?

"I think it was all those things. Not just both, but I think there is a lot in that. I also ended a really long relationship so that was something I didn’t process. Keeping that pace allowed me to not process it, and I didn’t really have the chance to deal. There was a lot of running, and I don’t think I was really aware of that. I think there is also just a huge sense of responsibility. I think I also had a lot of guilt that I was getting so much attention and I thought well there’s a lot at play here. I’m an attractive white person. I don’t mean that in an arrogant way but this is the kind of look that is privileged in our culture. And, I look young for my age. So I had a kind of guilt about that. I thought, if I have these privileges, then I have to leverage them to help people who don’t. So there is that. 

Also, at one point, I’d had a lot of chest pain. Post-mastectomy chest pain was something I did not know existed before I had my surgery. So, I was having really intense chest pain, and my oncologist said I had to go get images, and it sounded like metastasis. They used this word, and she said it in such a way that she felt like it could be or it is likely that. And so, that was in the summertime and it was in the height of when all this was going on and I just thought, there’s no way I can stop. There is just no way I can stop and get this checked out. So, I didn’t. That also led into me just running. I thought if this is a terminal disease anyway, then I am just going to go out with a bang. Like burn the candle at both ends running because I might not get the chance again. I didn’t even let myself think about that until I came back in the fall and stopped. I did this European tour and then I traveled to the East Coast, and I got really involved with metastatic advocacy work. I spent a couple of weeks doing a road trip with a woman who is really big in that advocacy work as well." 

Was that just this past fall?

"No, a year ago. That October, I was traveling all over, and then I came back and found out I had what ended up to be just fibroadenomas on the outside of my uterus, but they were really big. I also had this fear of the stories I’d heard of these women whose cancers had metastasized in their abdomens and they don’t know it until they are on the operating table. So again, I thought in my head, “Well shit, I am making a legacy.” I remember riding in the car and the seatbelt hurt and I was bleeding, but I just kept going. That was another contributing factor. I just kept going, thinking, if this is what I got, then I’m just going to keep giving it my all. Then, I came back and had surgery a week later."

Did you know you were going to have that surgery?

"Yeah, I knew I needed to have that surgery. I just didn’t know how quickly it would happen."

The propensity to run is a really interesting one. Just hearing the trajectory of what you did after you were sick, I feel as if I did that for twenty years of my life until I did exactly what we were talking about earlier which was saying, “Ok, I just have to sit in this,” which is not what we are culturally encouraged to do. We are encouraged to get back out there and do and show up and smile.

"Get over it already."

Right, and show we are on the other side. Until we allow ourselves the space to feel all of it and show up with all of it and work through it how we best need to, it’s the lion or the tiger or the bear that is constantly running after us. 

"Yes, absolutely, and I think that is one of the most damaging aspects with a lot of medical trauma, but [especially] for women with breast cancer. They are not given that time to just sit and mourn. It is true of our culture. We don’t place value on the grieving process. I’ve been thinking a lot about that. If we are given the time to just sit and feel wrecked for a while, how significant that would be, and we would be so much better off, more readily, if we could do it.  But, there is that pressure to just get back to it, to be a warrior, that is damaging. Really physically damaging." 

Do you call yourself a breast cancer patient to not use the other terms that are often used?

"I feel like it is more accurate. I really like accurate terms, like amputation, as opposed to mastectomy.  There’s more of a gravitas to amputation as well. But, for a while I also resented that everyone wanted to hold me up as this survivor. I thought, “Yeahm I get it, that I’m like young and dainty, and that’s something that you want to see, blonde haired and blue eyed, but I don’t want to be your poster child.” I didn’t like to say “survivor,” because then people didn’t know where I was at in the process. I’m still a patient. You know? I’m still undergoing treatment for breast cancer."

You really are for life.

"Yes, right, and so I feel like I was denying them that opportunity, media people or journalists, the opportunity to seem as it was done and over, and to hold me up like that." 

Wrapped up in a pink bow. 

"Right. Wrapped up in a pink bow, and also because I think it is really important to spread more awareness of metastatic breast cancer, and so then that always gives people pause to wonder about it."

Will you teach us more about it? Help people better understand the community that you are tied into and experiencing? What exactly that [term] means and the distinction.

"Yes. Right. It is interesting. I started doing work around queer cancer. I call it queer cancer, because I feel like it is a marginalized and oppressed community within the cancer world. And then as I learned about metastatic breast cancer, I found that there are all these similarities. They are also marginalized and oppressed, as people don’t want to talk about it. People don’t want to look at that. So, thirty percent of breast cancer patients who had early stage cancer will go on to have metastatic disease, and when you have metastatic disease, your chance of dying from it is 98%. Your average life span after diagnosis is something like 33 months, so it is huge. It is also more common in younger women. So almost all deaths due to breast cancer are due to metastatic breast cancer, but we don’t talk about it. Metastatic breast cancer is when it has travelled to a distant organ in your body, usually lungs, liver, bones, brain."

So regardless of breast tissue being gone it is moving to another?

"Yes, and it is terminal. You can treat it, but it is terminal. It is kind of like the red-headed stepchild in the breast cancer world. We have a million pink marches, and we talk about breast cancer all the time and survivorship, but we don’t talk about people who are terminal. I think there are a whole lot of levels behind that; one being that it is really fucking depressing and hard to face. I think it is hard for people to face, and I think it is largely about marketing and capitalism, because we can make money off the ribbons and races and all these things. We can sell products and people can feel good again. It’s like the inspiration porn, but you aren’t going to feel good looking at someone who is on their death bed. My friend Jenny is in Texas right now, and they don’t have death with dignity acts there, so she is just sitting, waiting to die. No one wants to look at that, so we don’t see that in media. So, the things that we know about breast cancer, we know because we see them in media. It is this community that is just really disempowered and treated badly, so just a small amount of breast cancer research goes into that. Susan G. Komen, who is the largest organization outside of the Federal Government who gives money to breast cancer research, gives about 2% to metastatic breast cancer research. So, you are looking for a breast cancer cure, but you are not researching the thing that would actually save lives. Even the Federal Government is only giving around 7%. It doesn’t make any sense."

LISA: What are they researching?

"Early prevention. All the money is going into early detection and early prevention. We have had up to 40 years of increasing mammography and early detection techniques, and yet the death rate has not decreased. So, it would make sense, it would be logical, to shift that funding."

Right. Because probably the margin on the front end is helping but the percentage of cancers continues to go up, across the board, in all areas. That’s pretty shocking. 

"It is pretty shocking. So when you learn something like that, when I learned that, I was shocked by it, and I couldn’t not do something." 

Right, and I think there is such a sense of helplessness around all of this. Wherever there is the opportunity to stand up and have a voice on behalf of your own experience and also of your peers and friends and other people in this community or wherever you feel disenfranchised, obviously, there’s this sensation of wanting to make that happen in any way that you can. 

What made you stop running running running, though?

"Well. Hmm. It’s hard to pinpoint a thing, I guess. I was very conscious that I was shutting down and not making space for certain things that were coming up in my life, because they would detract from my ability to do the work that I was doing. I just prioritized [the work] in such a way that it was above my own health, as I think I have explained, you know. And even in terms of romantic relationships, I decided that I don’t have room in my life for both of these things, so I’m just going to cut that out of my life, and then I realized that that was really unhealthy. I mean, maybe it would be ok if I dated somebody. That was kind of part of it. I don’t want to put too much pressure on that, but I did start dating somebody and it made me question that logic. A lot of my running had been caught up in my not being able to process the big breakup that I had had, and so it was sort of like finding somebody that I wanted to make time for in my life was huge. Thinking “I want to prioritize you” was really huge for me. And thinking that I actually could do these things in life, and I could be powerful in the advocacy world, and I could still have these nice things for myself, was a lot. I also realized that in order to do that, to date someone in any sort of meaningful way, I would need to process a lot of my baggage. I was hyper aware of that. I would say, “I don’t want to date, because then I would have to process all this stuff in the past.” I didn’t think of it as being bad for me. I realized that I didn’t just need to process so I could be present for someone else, it was something I needed to process so I could be present with myself. So, that was kind of the start of it. That woman was also someone who I talked about my work with a lot. So, through that, I started to realize a lot of things. That was a huge part of it. [The advocacy work] started off being something that I was so passionate about. I still am passionate about it. But I started to lose sight of what I was most passionate about and most skilled at or knowledgeable about. I felt this pressure to do everything. I found myself feeling guilty and doing things out of obligation and guilt all the time. It was driving me mad."

That’s never a good formula. 

"Yeah, and I was drinking too much because I needed to vent, and there were things that just weren’t lining up with what I needed to be. I was working in organizations and people in those organizations would say things that were really homophobic or racist. You know, I am in association with a lot of people because of advocacy work and so I’m kind of willing to overlook some things. Like, you are going to post some racist thing on Facebook and I have to determine how ok I am with that. If we have this common goal working for this cause, what am I willing to overlook? But it got to be way too much, especially in this year. Like the Pulse massacre, that was huge for me and I realized I was so out of touch with any LGBT community that I didn’t have people to turn to and the people who I was working with didn’t understand how that affected me. That was hard, and then [there were] all these bathroom issues. There were huge things that really affected me, and I realized that I needed to spend more time thinking about it. I felt, “You know, I’m not willing to do these events out of obligation and guilt when you are saying racist things to me. I’m just not willing to do it.” Or when you don’t use the pronouns I’ve asked you to use for me. Why am I giving so much up? I felt like I was doing so much work for these communities who, in the end, would just treat me as a disposable piece. That was a big realization that I had. So, it kind of gave me the freedom to step back and say, “Ok, I am going to invest my time and myself into the communities that actually are fulfilling and will feed me as well,” and I quit so much in such a short period of time."

It was really great freedom and just giving myself permission to do that was huge. To say, “It is ok, you don’t have to do everything for everyone.”  

It’s another way of being an advocate; being an advocate for yourself, and you are standing up for those beliefs in walking away from something and you are teaching. Whether people want to learn the lesson or not. Whether they are taking in the issues of pronouns or whatever else, who knows if walking away makes a difference or not, but it draws a line in the sand. You are saying, “Hey, I’m a person. This is what I believe in and, if you are not going to respect it, then I am going to pour my energy and love into something else.”

"Right, and when you are doing that many things, you aren’t doing them well. I wasn’t doing anything well. So, I run this support group Queer Cancer and I hadn’t been spending any energy on it. I wasn’t doing any writing about that which is something I had wanted to do all along. It has always been the most important thing for me. I hadn’t written for so long and I was doing these things that I wasn’t passionate about, and I wasn’t doing them well. I realized here were all these people who would really benefit from me being present for them and who would also give back. So, that has been really rewarding. I’ll try to explain…I haven’t always been… I mean I am a queer person, but I haven’t always been into the concept of the community. I mean, I’ve always felt like we are all people. This is not the most fascinating thing about me by any means. It is just another quality that I have. But, it has now become something I feel that I have to organize around, because it sets me apart so much, more and more. It is strange that I feel that way as I get older, but I do. So, the story I came up around it is this. Imagine there were these cancer patients and they needed this new building erected, like this new center for cancer treatment. And I am doing all this hard work and I am building it brick and mortar. So, we do this building and the building is erected and we all go inside. But I have mobility issues, and there is no elevator or no ramp. And so, I can’t get into the building. I am looking up at them and I am so excited for them, waving up at them, but they are not looking down at me at all. So here I am, and I have no access to this thing that I have built.  There’s no recognition that I was part of it. I can just go away. That’s really how it felt. So, if that is how this section of the advocacy world is going to treat me, or the larger advocacy world really, I don’t mean to pinpoint any group by any means, but that is what it is. You just felt so disposable." 

I know obviously that you have thought and you have lived so much of what not doing reconstruction may or may not define, show the world, about gender and perceived issues around sexuality and identity. I think so much of the discomfort around this as a choice is that there is an assumption that it makes a statement about perhaps who you are. And so, do you think that mainstream, not even America, but the mainstream, has issue with that? If a woman does not have breasts, what does that say about her femininity or her identity? So then, in stepping out, I know in this past year, I have really sat with it. I feel more comfortable in my body, than I ever have before, without breasts. My recollection of when I had my “real breasts” is faint, if not non-existent. I had this in between phase. I recall, and my stepmom and dad reminded me, that the second day after I had my preventive double mastectomy, that I looked down and said, “What did I do?” I don’t remember this because I was on so many different drugs. There was no regret in that. I think that was my one moment of recognizing mourning or shock or just this huge transformation that had happened. Then there were eight years where I completely did not identify with the literal Barbie-like fake ones that I had elected to get. So now, in the space of feeling more me, more in my body, after [the explant], I’ve been sitting with how am I being perceived. I think some of society’s discomfort with it is that if you are happy that way, then does that mean you are queer? And if you are queer, then I don’t know how to deal with you because that makes me uncomfortable. 

"Yes. That’s the crux of it for me. What’s most interesting to me is the gender aspect. So, doctors say to people that you are going to be gender confused if you don’t have reconstruction. That is a very common thing. People often get really upset about it. [Some] doctors can get angry if you don’t want to have reconstruction. I’ve heard these stories over and over.  I’ve actually been in the office. I went as a live model once with a friend who had one breast because one of her implants had failed years earlier and she didn’t even know that her insurance would pay for her to get rid of the other one. So, it was a long process and I went with her to her plastic surgeon’s office [to show the surgeon what she wanted to look like]. That was a once in a lifetime thing." 

I may have showed my doctor your picture. I don’t remember. 

"I know people have used my pictures, and I offer that. I’ll offer that to people. But being a live model, that was a once in a lifetime thing. She actually painted my chest. I need to write that story sometime. So even for that plastic surgeon, who wasn’t really resistant, but even her bit of resistance, because there was some, and I was there to advocate for this person in case that happened. It was more that she was disappointed. She has this pride in her work and she was like, “Really? But it looks so great.” And if I hadn’t been there, I think it would have been a really different conversation. She was just looking between us and was, like “Alright.” You know, shaking her head. 

Back to the gender stuff. I make the argument that breasts are the most policed and politicized body part. We’ve been fighting for reproductive rights for a long time so you could make that argument as well. But we don’t see what’s in a person’s body. I mean, I don’t have a uterus but you wouldn’t know that unless I told you. Whereas, you can look at a person and see if they have breasts or not. So, it does become very confusing because people do associate breasts with women. Well, men and women have the same breast tissue. So that’s an issue to start off with. There are certainly men who have larger breasts than I had.  I think that that’s a really productive thing, though. Even for a very straight person, not having breasts, having a non-normative female identified body. Queer is our concept of gender. And so, for a lot of people that is really scary. 

But for me, I think that is the hopeful and exciting thing. We need to shake up gender.  These taken for granted assumptions about gender are damaging to all of us so if we can shake them up that is fantastic, but most people don’t want to shake that up. Most people have this sometimes almost violent reaction to seeing a breastless body. It’s like it offends their sense of order in the world.  Like, woman equals breasts. That’s it. It differs based on who the person is. Like for me, people often just think I am trans, or don’t notice that I don’t have breasts, or it doesn’t seem as odd on someone like me. Being thin makes it less noticeable as well. I’m sure people don’t notice it as much on you, too. But on a 60-year old housewife or a grandmother, they are more likely to see it as breast cancer related. It can definitely offend people’s sense of what the world should be."

I find that part of it curious, regardless of how the assumptions land. Obviously, assumptions are made all around, not just on this subject, it is what happens in our society. I find it just curious that in this day and age, and again, look at what has happened this year, so perhaps that is a completely asinine statement to be surprised. It troubles me that so much is projected onto it. 

"Well, we go to great lengths as a culture to enforce these hegemonic standards for gender. Short hair is for men. These are men’s clothes. They aren’t men’s clothes. They are just clothes. Clothes don’t have a gender. Inanimate objects don’t have a gender. So why do we try to assign that? The aisle for girl’s toys. The aisle for boy’s toys. Well, at the end of the day, it is all just plastic crap with different colors. So why is this color associated in a certain way. So, for me, it comes down to there must be some investment in it. Capitalism. How can we market to people? That’s a lot of it. But then, why do individuals internalize it so much? Why do we get so caught up in it? And why is it so important? We look at these things, like breasts, like hair, like clothes, these heuristic shortcuts to reading someone. We just decide as a culture that certain things have certain meanings and we need to abide by that." 

I think that is exactly it. I think it goes back to when you are in the doctor’s office and you are being given your options. You were fortunate enough that the conversation was different. But I don’t remember in that first conversation if that was even put out there. So, it was this kind of implants or this kind of implants, or, as I have shared before, some people are able to use their own body fat, which for me wasn’t an option. It wouldn’t have been for you, too, had you gone that route. If you are of smaller frame, it is just not in the cards. So, if you are of smaller frame, it is this implant or this implant, because that is what makes people happy. And I wasn’t in a place in my life where I was thinking beyond what just was being told to me. I was completely outsourcing what was going to make me happy in so many ways. That was how I was just running from the trauma of having been diagnosed with cancer at age 21. I had spent a decade totally shut down and asking everyone and society for the answers. And that happened in that room. So, I just said, “Ok.” I’m not feeling that [what I chose] is right for everybody. I just feel that everyone should be presented with options. I have friends, as I am sure you do, who have had reconstruction and feel great about it. I fully support that. However, having the options presented with full information, unbiased information, about what also comes with the risks of getting the silicone, because that piece is just left out. I think that is a crime. It is unfortunate. We are told the side effects of the surgery. 

"Yeah, I feel like there’s a lot of dishonesty around implants. People are not often told that they are likely to have multiple surgeries, which is often the case. They are not told what the rate of rejection is. And so, that is a distinct violence done to someone. If somebody thinks they are going to have just one surgery, that is a completely different decision. “Oh, I’ll just have this one surgery to have my fake breasts put in.” But, if they don’t know that they are going to require multiple surgeries, that, “Oh, you are going to have to switch them out every seven years.” If you aren’t given that information up front, that means you are going to require more surgery. You are going to require more violence on your body in seven years. Surgery is violence.  The issue is not about what is better or worse. There are no medical benefits to having implants. That’s true. I’ve gotten doctors to say that. I’ve screen shot it. It makes me very happy. That’s true, but that does not mean that there are not other benefits. That for many women, it is really traumatic not to have breasts." 

Right. That’s hugely important. That’s why all along I have emphasized with Last Cut that for me, focusing on the explant, has not been making a statement of what I think everyone else should do. For me, it has been the perfect metaphor for talking about when something is out of alignment with who we are and then taking action to modify that and correct it so that, as an individual, we feel more whole and at peace. I completely think it is the individual part that ties into everything. It ties into a conversation about politics, everything. For me, that’s what it comes down to. That’s where the shock and disbelief is. Why can’t everyone support everyone in just being who they are? Enter the rainbows and the unicorns. Obviously, that’s a very idealistic hope for how everyone would operate, but can’t we just get out of everyone else’s business?

"No, we can’t though because there is a huge investment, a financial investment, in controlling women’s bodies. Think of how much of our economy is based on the medical system and pharmaceuticals. I think it is like twenty percent of the US economy. So, there’s that. I mean, people are making a lot of money off of this. The fact that we have been increasing early detection exponentially for forty years and the death rate hasn’t changed, tells me that there is huge financial gain to be made from people dying. That’s the truth in the matter. [It is] the same thing with these surgeries. Doctors have an investment in wanting women to look a certain way. There’s the monetary aspect of it, but there is also this need to maintain a woman’s form and what we think of as a woman’s form, and that comes before thinking about, again, about a person’s mental wellbeing or their physical health. And why is that? So, then you go back to our value system. Why are we so personally invested in a woman’s body looking a certain way? I think it is just this binary of male and female that we work really hard to maintain, because it wouldn’t exist if we did not push it in all of these ways. This is a really fantastic example of how we push to maintain that binary."

Yes.

"I don’t necessarily feel that people look at a person with a flat chest and think they are queer necessarily. I think if you add in other factors, I have a number of them, then, yes, you’d make that assumption. That’s definitely true. But, I do think that I hear women say that they work really, really hard to feel feminine again after not having breasts and that’s interesting for me to process and try to understand."

What actions do they take to work really hard at that?

"Yeah. So much of it has to do with their partners. If I ask these questions, I’ll hear “Well, it’s my husband.” It’s never about their desire, their want. But even just like dressing in a more sexy way, they might be more prone to wearing makeup, dressing up, amplifying the other outward signals of femininity. Yeah. I’ve been in situations where people did not want to be photographed with me because they did not want to come across as queer. They thought if they were seen with me, then they would be seen as queer.

I did a big photoshoot that I would not allow myself to be a part of. I angered a lot of people in that. That is also a good Last Cut story. So, there were 14 of us, we were all Flattoppers, and at the end of it, I was told that I was not allowed to use any of the photos. It kept coming back to stuff all about sexuality, which didn’t make any sense to me. Like, it wasn’t a queer project. I’d never said it was, that was not what I was trying to do. It was about people. I remember them saying things like “These women worked so hard to regain their femininity after breast cancer and now you are going to take it away by making them look queer.” How does that even make sense? How dare you talk to me like that? I am a human being and deserve better. That doesn’t even seem logical. Being seen as gay or whatever doesn’t mean you are less feminine. Where’s the femme visibility? There’s a lot of queer femmes out there. And do you think being a sexual minority would make you less feminine? Or being pictured with someone who is a sexual minority would make you less feminine? Our bodies are pretty much the same. 

These behaviors might rub off…

"Well, I tried . So, yeah." 

LISA: That takes me back to learning about gender and queer politics. What about femme queer? That’s been around forever.

"It’s making a comeback. It’s been great." 

LISA: Which again, begs that same question, that less is obvious to the eye. 

"Right. That is a really interesting comparison, too. A few of my exes actually work around the issues of femme visibility. They feel like they are almost ostracized. They seem less-than gay because they pass. It is very interesting. 

The worst interview I ever had was pretty early on, and when I realized I could actually be sassy in these interviews, I could just be myself and I didn’t have to be as passive. The woman clearly had no idea how to talk to me. She clearly did not know how to understand any of the gender component stuff. She said something like, “Well, now that you don’t have breasts, what do you do to feel more feminine?” And I just stopped, and I was looking in the mirror and I said, “Well, how do you, as someone with breasts, work to make yourself feel feminine?” I just flipped it around on her, because it was just as absurd, right? And she made this terrible awful giggle and tried to diffuse the question. I said, “I don’t do anything to try to feel more feminine.” Then she said, “What do you do to feel more like a woman?” I said, “I don’t feel like a woman, and I never felt like a woman. You never asked me that. And how is that relevant?” It was just like so absurd that that was the question. Why does that matter? Why don’t you ask me what I did to feel healthy?" 

LISA: God, I feel like you could just go so meta on these questions. Like, what does it even mean to feel like a woman? What does that feel like?

"Right. And that’s why I love the conversations that open up, because what does it mean? I shut down all of my female hormones. I don’t have a uterus. I don’t have breasts. What am I to you? Sometimes I just want to ask people, “How do you see me?” I was at the hot springs the other day, you know, naked in public, which is how I always want to be, of course . And I just had this urge, I don’t know why then more than other times, but I wanted to ask people, “What do I look like to you? How do you perceive this body?” I don’t want to invade people’s comfort, but I just really wish I could do that. I just want to ask. 

Right? What makes a woman? What make a person the gender they identify is how they feel. How they identify. That’s it. It is really very simple. So being able to divorce gender from body parts is a very meaningful project and I’d like to work towards that."

Is that what you are focusing on now?

"Yeah, definitely. I want to go back and get back into the theory of these things as well. That’s how I started out, with the theory and thinking about the ideas behind all of this. I think practice is so important but I believe the world has changed their ideas. We give them words to shake things loose and that’s how we change things. I need to get back to doing more writing and doing more exploration in that way. Having these conversations with people and putting more written material out." 

Yes, Please.

"Yeah, you know and giving myself more permission to focus on what I am most passionate about. I read a paper that I wrote two years ago and it was just amazing. I forgot that I wrote that way, that I can write that way. I was just so excited and my theory brain was enlivened by it and I thought, “Why have I gotten so far?” I’ve gotten so far because I’ve been trying to do everything for everyone else, and that’s a huge reason why I think so many people get implants. This is a disease where we don’t get the privilege of thinking about our own needs first. And that’s a thing you hear over and over and over. You said that, too, in thinking about your reconstructive options, thinking about how it is going to affect other people. There’s something really wrong with that. There’s something really wrong with a culture where people who are perceived female aren’t allowed to think about what is going to feel good to them, or look good to them. Why am I concerned about how it is going to affect you? Even Audre Lorde [talked about this]. Her book is as old as I am. She wrote it in my birth year. The things she wrote about in The Cancer Journals are things that are so relevant and true today. A nurse was upset with her because she wasn’t wearing a “foob,” like a crocheted fake breast, because she had only one removed. This nurse was upset with her for coming to the cancer center and not wearing it. It was all about how she was affecting the other patients. “You are going to alarm them. You are going to make them uncomfortable.” That’s at the heart of it. You are going to make people uncomfortable with your body. There are stories of women going to a restroom. “What if someone doesn’t recognize that you are a female?” It is all about how your appearance affects somebody else." 

And their perceived sense of safety. 

"Yeah. But don’t I have autonomy over my own body? Isn’t it mine, ultimately?"

Well and this idea of normal.

"Right, and these huge lengths that we go to maintain normal. So, if it was really just normal, we wouldn’t have to go to these huge lengths to get to it." 

Right, because each of us are normal in our own way, or not normal in our own way.  Ok. So, what’s most true to you in all of this? "I feel like what I have come back to, or come into, is honoring myself first, which is something that I never knew how to do. I’m still learning it. It’s really amazing. Yeah, the concept of self-care. I can talk about it over and over and tell people what to do, but radical self-care is revolutionary. So, I think the things I find most important are passion and desire, and possibility, and being in line with those elements. I need to be doing the things that I am most passionate about because that’s where I can make the most difference. I feel like desire is the guiding force behind everything. I mean, desire makes me drink. Desire makes me breathe. It makes me form connection."  What does radical self-care look like for you? How do you define that? "Right. Radical self-care is choosing to put your own needs first. Realizing that you can’t help others until you’ve helped yourself first. How can I go out and be a spokesperson for healing and recovering from breast cancer if I haven’t done it myself? That seems absurd, but that’s what I have been doing. Everyone says put the oxygen mask on yourself first and I understand that, but, like, how could you? How could you in that moment?" It feels so selfish. "It feels ridiculously selfish, and I think that’s something that we are taught when we are brought up women. We aren’t taught to put ourselves first. So, doing that, just putting yourself first is revolutionary because it goes against the grain of our gender norms, again." Well, then we are in a position to serve. Not serve others necessarily, but to serve the mission, the desire, what we are passionate about. Because otherwise as I have learned, as you have learned, as Lisa has learned, you can be running, running, running, doing, doing, doing, but if you aren’t taking care of yourself underneath all of that, while that is happening, there’ s eventually a huge burnout, whether it is physical, mental or emotional. And then in the end, the mission isn’t being served. So, it is service to other people in a universal way, but if we are not taking the time and finding ourselves worthy of that care to begin with, it bottoms out.  "Yeah, absolutely, and I love the concept of less being more. In a million ways. In my body, in my thoughts, and in my actions. If I can do less, then I can do it better in a way that is reenergizing instead of just taking from me."  Amen. That’s a big one. 

You’ve alluded to more than one Last Cut that you have made, and as I talk about and write about, I think we make these significant decisions to bring the internal and external world into a more congruent state constantly. It can be a decision of what to eat or not eat, or where to go or not go, or obviously, there are ones in life that have to do with our bodies, our movings, our relationships or what to do with different groups. So, certainly, you spoke about the advocacy world and this, that and the other. Is there a specific Last Cut that you wish to share?

"I’ve thought about this question a lot. What do I want to talk about? But then I think, what am I actually feeling? What would be significant for somebody to hear? So, there’s this debate happening. I think, if somebody is going to listen to this, I want them to hear this great idea. But I am also an emotional person and there is that, too, you know. Like, some real Last Cuts.

I’ve ended a lot relationships that were really toxic to me, also for similar reasons where I didn’t feel honored or respected or it wasn’t worth what I was giving up. I was giving up more to have these relationships than what I was gaining from them. So, that was really big. It was really painful because it just felt like more and more and more and more loss. There was intense loneliness because of it. But I firmly believe that you have to be open to possibility and, if my life is full of these toxic relationships, then I am not open to new things coming in. So, that was another experience of just sitting in that and feeling very alone and lonely and isolated, which is really extremely hard for me. Just feeling that and deciding that that was better than continuing on with friendships and relationships that didn’t feel good to me. Yeah. It was really sad for a long time, but now it feels extremely liberating. I feel like I stood up for myself. You know, like I stand up for everyone else, but it was really hard to learn how to stand up for myself. I still feel really lonely. It is still hard. But now, being on the other side, it feels much better. This constant pang of micro-guilt and things I had around these interactions. 

I spoke about dating a woman this year, which was really fantastic and a really good learning experience for me, because I definitely I had decided that I wanted nothing to do with romantic love. Like, it’s going to take away time. It is overrated. We just made this up in culture so we can sell Hallmark cards, whatever. You know, there are all these different elements. That’s not how I wanted to spend my time. You know, it was really amazing to realize that I did have capacity to open up in that way again. It was good to realize that I have that capacity. I also learned that I was carrying a lot of baggage and so I realized that I was not able to maintain that relationship and I didn’t want to let that go. There was so much possibility in that relationship and I didn’t want to lose that. But then there was so much thinking. Is it about this person? These scenarios? Or is it about my attachment to these possibilities? So, there was a lot of introspection and it ended up being a relationship where we shifted to being friends.

At first, I would say that’s just therapy-speak for dumping me. but it ended up being a very mindful and intentional shifting. We spent a lot of time together talking and processing it. So, I acknowledged that because I had been running [and] because I had been living my life that way, I couldn’t show up and be present and there were a lot things that were really triggering for me. I had to sit and process those things before I could heal myself, yet alone heal myself enough to be a positive influence in a lover’s life. So, that was a really intentional Last Cut that I feel good about. It feels really painful but also painful in an intentional way that feels like growth. Growing pain that I think will open up a lot of opportunity, possibility for me, you know? Being able to have a separation in that way and have it be so kind, to be present with someone in that way, was really amazing for me, for both of us. So, it was also good to have, after all these sloughing off of old relationships that weren’t serving me, to have this different type of separation that was really positive and intentional. 

I think that is beautiful to have these opportunities to learn another way and to do something in a different way. It’s an incredible gift. 

"It felt really cliché. Here’s a person that I had so much love for, but I couldn’t really express that in a romantic relationship, and I can express that in a friendship in a really profound way."

Well, I think so much is at stake when it is an intimate romantic partner. At least in my own experience, those have been the circumstances where I have lost myself the most because of how tied up and twirled up it all gets. 

I love that that’s the last cut that you are sharing. I think it is such a profound one because it sets the stage for how you are interacting with life by holding that self-care, self-honoring piece, and the honoring of the other in a really precious way. It is really both. It is a beautiful one. 

"If I hadn’t had that motivation, I would not have started to deal with this stuff. I wouldn’t have done it. So, you know, that was the motivation, but ultimately I’m not doing it for someone else, I am doing it for myself. So, I don’t know that I would have ever gotten to that point otherwise. 

I didn’t really talk about the things that I thought I might, but I also have this sense, which has been a theme of mine this year, which is to show up as the situation presents rather than try to force a situation. It’s also been really rewarding. So I guess this is another example of that. This is the conversational opportunity that happened."

Will you speak to pronouns? 

"Yeah. For most of my life, my adult life, I didn’t use my given name. I always used nicknames. I had friends who didn’t even know my given name and only knew my nickname. So, then going through cancer, everyone calls you your given name. And then I went back to school after that and so it was just easy to go along with that. Then, doing cancer advocacy, I didn’t want to go into a conference and ask somebody to remember another name, or a second name for me or like a different pronoun for me. I thought, everyone is dealing with chemo brain here, or they are really overwhelmed, I’m not going to put more on them. So, I felt a lot of pressure to conform and I didn’t always realize…I think it was compounding, and it became more and more difficult for me. There were stories like the one I shared about the photo shoot in Berlin, that were really traumatic. Things like that would come up. Like, I was working on a magazine project and having a really hard time asking these people who were claiming to be my really good close friends to use neutral pronouns. 

In August, I got really sick. I had kidney stones and I had to have an emergency surgery. I woke up and I don’t even know who I said it to, somebody pushing my gurney, the first thing I said when I woke up, I grabbed their hand, and I think they said my name or something, and I said “I don’t associate with female pronouns.” And I thought, “Why is that the first thing I said?” I was terrified of that surgery. I’ve had a lot of surgeries and, for whatever reason, that was the scariest one for me. I thought I might not wake up out of this. What do I need to say? What text do I need to send right now?"

LISA: What was the actual surgery?

"It was really minor. They put a stent in from my kidney to my ureter. It was the way that they all treated me. They looked at me like they were scared for me."  

And I’ve heard that is incredibly painful.

"It was incredibly painful and there had been a misdiagnosis and another doctor that was really terrible to me. There was a lot to it. But, I realized that for me to wake up out of a surgery where I thought I was worried I was going to die and that was the first thing I said, clearly that was really important to me and I needed to honor that. I thought, “Well, it is time.” And I had been talking about this with people, but this time as soon as I could type, I got on Facebook and I was like, “This is how significant this is to me, and I feel like I have been hiding this part of myself and not able to ask for what I want. I’m using a name that I don’twant or like and I am doing it for other people. And this is what I want. This is what I want you to call me.” 

So, yeah, I prefer gender neutral pronouns, which are they, them, their. People will argue that that is not grammatically correct, but that’s not true. It has been in use forever, even Chaucer used those pronouns. And that feels much more comfortable for me because I don’t feel like I have a gender. I feel like it is all just socially constructed and sometimes I feel like I do things that can be perceived as gendered but for me, myself, I don’t feel like male or female. I feel like a person. I feel like me. I feel like I am one person. I don’t mean to be like, “Oh, I’m a snowflake. We are all snowflakes.” But I do feel like that’s my gender. My gender is Vonn. So that’s been a really interesting process of asking people to use those pronouns. I have a lot of guilt. People feel bad and say they have a hard time, because it just doesn’t sound right in a sentence. Sometimes I will give people a free pass but then I think, “Why? Why am I doing that? That’s not what I want.” I think a lot of people are using different pronouns now and I’m really working on not having guilt for asking for that. People get nervous. They get worried they are going to shut down conversation. I want them to be able to open up a conversation. I want them to always ask me and I’m not going to be upset with them if they say the wrong pronoun."